I can't see how the mouse can be inverted without locking the recticle for the guns at a centerline position, else the game will be TOALLY unplayable?!? Anybody have any good suggestions on this?

Best Regards
Christian "Bargib" Koerner
Editor in Chief, The Lancers Reactor

Dragoro, what you simply aren't understanding is that for many veterans of space/flight sims, their brains are already conditioned, due to years of experience, to instinctively push forward to pitch down, and to pull back to pitch up. For these people, it truly is more intuitive to be able to invert the mouse's y-axis. For others, this doesn't make sense.

Regardless, there is absolutely no harm in providing the option for both - none. I mean, what 's it to you if someone plays with an inverted mouse? What business is it of yours? Why do you even care? You make no sense in opposing an option that would in no way change the gameplay for you, but would add some ease-of-use to a significant number of other players.

The more options, the better.

Bargib, to answer your question, I have played the demo, and I truly believe that nothing else need be done, other than add an option to multiply the mouse's y-axis inputs by negative 1. I'll try to emphasize again, that for people who have always played with an inverted mouse, it seems NATURAL to push to go down, and pull to go up. I don't know what else I can say. It's like trying to write with my left hand - can I do it? Yes, but not very well. I keep instinctivley pushing one way, when I intended to go the other way. Were this very simple option available, the game would be much more playable to people such as myself.


Edited by - Vagabond on 26-02-2003 14:04:27

But then you will not shoot where your recticle is? Or as I read you, you look at it like removing the connection between mouse moving up and the cursor going down?!?

barg the whole point he's making is that when using a joy, or inverted mouse pushing forward makes the ship dive, in fl making the ship dive and turrets drop, if your used to it then this would seem natural, though i can imagine if your not used to it you would end up screaming in rage at the insanity of it all (like reverse control in sl, the first time you get this you can gaurantee that things will be going badly for you, but as you play it a lot you get used to the reverse controls and can actually fly the ship with some degree of skill when you pick on up)

For everyone who can't imagine to push to go down.. try a to fly a flightsimilator with a stick. Or better, step in a plane and try to fly the thing yourself.

Oh if you do the latter one, make sure you got a good insurance for your loved ones.

DA better comes up with a solution.

Not looking ot start any war of words here but, well, from my experience u can teach an old dog new tricks (talking about me here)cos i been playing space sims for 14 years, I can't remember a time without using a j/stick and inverted pitch and i took on fl's mouse scheme within 5 minutes.So I'm sorry but to me all this we have played space sims for x amount of years and its programmed in don't really wash. To me this whole issue is one of adaptibily and openmindedness in accepting what's there in whats been provided by the developer to use.Do you honestly think for one minute they have not gone over this type of issue? May be it would be nice of them to forward some info thru bargib maybe on the reasons why inverting is not there or why they dropped it if they ever had it but i bet it's all on the targeting and point and click style thats evolved.

@bargib

I don't see how they can offer inverted mouse without doing a fair bit of re writing ot the game engine to lock the reticle which would mean a complete change to how u fly the ship ie another flight mode. There is simply no way you can have a roving reticle and invert pitch at the same time to maintain target lock. It would have to be fixed like any fps which FL is not.

With all the time this game has been under developemnt asking for stuff like this would either move the goal posts back (too late as its gone gold) or indeed be a patch and thats up to them if they want ot consider the feasabilty of writng this in.
In my opinion the game doesn't need it,just needs a change in peoples thinking away from joystick mode which has been the intention of DA with this control scheme from the start, or for those that disagree why not see some other threads where someone posted links to dl a program to enable u to map a j/stick to mouse and see if that helps any better.You get hte use of hte j/stick plus all the movement u are then used to.

Well thats enuff from me in this thread I've worn myself out :O

just my further 2 cents

Harb

P.S Being a techie including being a programmer of sorts, i have the happy perspsective of seeing things from both a users and IT standpoint.Sometimes it's all too easy to say wouldn't it be good if ....without considering the technical implications ot implement these wishes.Granted DA are talented people without a doubt but I feel it's somewhat like a whiny oliver twist saying please sir can we have some more and expect miracles from them, when IMO whats there works fine already

Vagabond, try to read my explanation again. FL's control scheme is well, that's the way it is. Impossible to implement with inverted mouse. If some can't play without inverted mouse or joystick, then all we can say is that FL is not really the game for them. You can scream that this is discriminatory. Perhaps it is. But there are a lot of injustices...there always will be. If they can't learn to cope, then sorry, this game is not for them. The same goes to blind people who want to drive cars. Well, they can't. FL is not designed for inverted mouse users the way cars are not designed for blind people. If you can't develop the necessary skills and qualification, then it's just not for you.

I'm a total Inverted mouse using FPS also (CS,UT UT2003, TacOps,Tribes2...) It did take me a while to get used to FL, but now I've played a few more couple hour sessions - I don't have that mind meltdown that I had when I first started. At first I didn't think I would never get used to it. But I don't even think about it now.


When it absolutely, positively needs to be ~~*BOOM*~~`(static)

Personally,

The way the mouse is now screws with me when I'm trying to fight, I can handle it when I'm just flying around, but when I get into a battle my mind goes into instinctive mode.

I've been playing FPS games for years, I started with weekly lan parties playing Doom 2 and then was a clan player when Quake 1 came out and caught on, the unfortunate fact is that for as long as I've been able to use an inverted mouse, I've been using it! it's burnt into my brain.. so when I get into combat, my instinct goes to what I've been used to for the last 8 or 9 years.

I know that the way the game is right now, it would make no sense to invert the mouse because it would screw up targetting, but I do not think it would be impossible to offer some options for those of us that are handicapped in this fashion Invert the retical as well? tricky perhaps, but it would work .. maybe an option to lock the retical as well as invert the mouse ..

Who knows .. enough development time went into it, I'm sure there is a solution that could have been develped .. but ... it hasn't

It dont matter what your brain is "conditioned" to, Vagabond. Inverted mouse simply will not work in this game. All these people saying that its possible are not thinking through thier arguement. Its simply impossible.

Sorry if my comments sounded snide, but I STILL can't understand why those that insist on this control don't realize that they will NEVER hit a damn thing with their guns while diving or climbing if they get it. The fact that you AIM your weapons with the mouse cursor ends the debate of inverting the Y axis in it's tracks. It IS simple physics (but be USED to a control method is not PHYSICS it's PSYCHOLOGY...i.e. in your MIND).

I fully understand that those that are used to joystick flight (myself included), will find this NEW control scheme a bit challenging to get used to, but an open mind is a BIG step in getting the ball rolling. Demanding a fix that is not even a reasonable solution is just childish. I feel confident that if you COULD invert the up/down axis you would soon be here complaining that you can't hit anything in the up/down movement plane, so the game sucks because of that.

Now, stating "I can't get used to this new ship control method", is a totally different argument. I have an 8 year old son that would be better suited to discuss the finer points of the "I can't do this so it must SUCK and I don't want to do it anyway..." argument.

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I can't see how the mouse can be inverted without locking the recticle for the guns at a centerline position,

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That is exactly my solution. I lose the feature of being able to track the guns on the cursor but as it is now, I lose the ability to play the game. I am willing to give up this feature to play the game.

Personally I think the guns following the cursor is a great idea. If you are a trader in a freighter that doesn't turn well, it will be a god send. But for fighter jocks who will be in turn wars, it won't prove that useful (useful yes but not like for a freighter). Other than that, someone else already said it, just make the cursor move opposite the mouse movements in an inverted mouse mode.

I'm happy that a few people see how impossible the request is... Belive me - DA tested TONS of different ways in usability labs to come up with something...

Best Regards
Christian "Bargib" Koerner
Editor in Chief, The Lancers Reactor

Ah....so the solution is to add joystick support disguised as mouse controls.

You are now debating a different issue and I feel this thread will soon be closed.