Gotta say that this is a great idea... might be hard, but it is probably possible to write a prog that searches scrpit.xml files from different folders automatically for possible similarities.
Hell, even i've made a C++ prog that can search a file for a specific string. The problem is, you gotta specify which string, and it can't search for multiple lines
Some people are alive only because its illegal to kill them
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Tue Oct 14, 2003 9:21 pm
I found something cool that would help with identifying similar mods:
ExamDiff Pro 3.1
Unfortunately, it does cost $35 unless you download a keygenerator, crack or other shareware defeating program
Some people are alive only because its illegal to kill them
Edited by - Silver_Fire on 14-10-2003 22:21:25
ExamDiff Pro 3.1
Unfortunately, it does cost $35 unless you download a keygenerator, crack or other shareware defeating program
Some people are alive only because its illegal to kill them
Edited by - Silver_Fire on 14-10-2003 22:21:25
Wed Oct 15, 2003 2:47 pm
Organization and Rules.
Disclaimer: I yield anything I post here to anyone else who actually is a modder, as I am not. But things like this interest me so I thought I would take a first swipe at what may be needed. To sort of get the discussion going.
I think some of this already has been mentioned above but I am repeating it here, perhaps not exactly in the way it was originally posted ... in which case my apologies.....
It seems that at some point judgment calls will be necessary. Some kind of a jury may be needed to make those calls and a spokesperson for that jury also would be needed. At that point, I ran out of steam. But here is what I was able to put together to get the discussion going:
Outline of types of Mods that need to be tracked and possible method to organize them and some rules proposals.
---Discovering How to Edit Original FL Content - For Crediting Only
1) Ships
2) Weapons, Equipment, Commodities
3) Systems, Planets, Bases
4) Characters, costumes, accessories
5) Houses and Factions
6) Jump gates and jump holes(?)
---FL Modding Tutorials, SDKs, References, Tools and Utilities/Ini Editors/Lookup Utilities, etc.
---Adaptations/Importations to FL from Other Games or Sources
1) Ships
2) Weapons, Equipment, Commodities
3) Systems, Planets, Bases
4) Characters, costumes, accessories
5) Empires, races and beings, houses, factions, etc.
---Expansions/Extensions/Additions/Innovations
1) Ships
2) Weapons, Equipment, Commodities
3) Systems, Planets, Bases
4) Characters, costumes, accessories
5) Empires, races and beings, houses, factions, etc.
---All New and Original
1) Ships
2) Weapons, Equipment, Commodities
3) Characters, costumes, accessories
4) Empires, races and beings, houses, factions, etc.
Rules -
1) The earliest time stamp of the complete posting in the correct registry area prevails.
2) No credit to anyone who spots an incorrectly posted mod and claims it to be his/her own when posting it to the correct area. But, also, no credit to the real author of the mod until the author correctly posts it in his/her own name.
3) No place holders are allowed.
4) Mods that are riddled with bugs may be voted off the registry to allow for
the next actually working version of the mod to assume precedence.
5) Registering a mod automatically means that the author gives permission for others to borrow that mod UNLESS measures are specifically taken and posted that the author wishes to retain/protect the uniqueness of the mod for his own future development.
6) Mods based upon making changes or tweaks to Original FL features with no additions of art or other effects are public domain.
>>Reorganized, added new area for All New and Original Mods and added rule 6.
Edited by - Indyl11 on 23-10-2003 03:27:33
Disclaimer: I yield anything I post here to anyone else who actually is a modder, as I am not. But things like this interest me so I thought I would take a first swipe at what may be needed. To sort of get the discussion going.
I think some of this already has been mentioned above but I am repeating it here, perhaps not exactly in the way it was originally posted ... in which case my apologies.....
It seems that at some point judgment calls will be necessary. Some kind of a jury may be needed to make those calls and a spokesperson for that jury also would be needed. At that point, I ran out of steam. But here is what I was able to put together to get the discussion going:
Outline of types of Mods that need to be tracked and possible method to organize them and some rules proposals.
---Discovering How to Edit Original FL Content - For Crediting Only
1) Ships
2) Weapons, Equipment, Commodities
3) Systems, Planets, Bases
4) Characters, costumes, accessories
5) Houses and Factions
6) Jump gates and jump holes(?)
---FL Modding Tutorials, SDKs, References, Tools and Utilities/Ini Editors/Lookup Utilities, etc.
---Adaptations/Importations to FL from Other Games or Sources
1) Ships
2) Weapons, Equipment, Commodities
3) Systems, Planets, Bases
4) Characters, costumes, accessories
5) Empires, races and beings, houses, factions, etc.
---Expansions/Extensions/Additions/Innovations
1) Ships
2) Weapons, Equipment, Commodities
3) Systems, Planets, Bases
4) Characters, costumes, accessories
5) Empires, races and beings, houses, factions, etc.
---All New and Original
1) Ships
2) Weapons, Equipment, Commodities
3) Characters, costumes, accessories
4) Empires, races and beings, houses, factions, etc.
Rules -
1) The earliest time stamp of the complete posting in the correct registry area prevails.
2) No credit to anyone who spots an incorrectly posted mod and claims it to be his/her own when posting it to the correct area. But, also, no credit to the real author of the mod until the author correctly posts it in his/her own name.
3) No place holders are allowed.
4) Mods that are riddled with bugs may be voted off the registry to allow for
the next actually working version of the mod to assume precedence.
5) Registering a mod automatically means that the author gives permission for others to borrow that mod UNLESS measures are specifically taken and posted that the author wishes to retain/protect the uniqueness of the mod for his own future development.
6) Mods based upon making changes or tweaks to Original FL features with no additions of art or other effects are public domain.
>>Reorganized, added new area for All New and Original Mods and added rule 6.
Edited by - Indyl11 on 23-10-2003 03:27:33
Wed Oct 15, 2003 11:23 pm
Indylancer has done a great job of listing the necessities of a Forum type of system for registering these mods. One thing I have to add, only in the beginning will Moderators need to make sure mods are attributed to the right person. Otherwise the time it was posted will surely be that.
Also, links to where the downloaded mod can be gotten should be provided along with the forum code.
I still think for people who don't want their mod in the open, there should be some sort of "hidden" forum. Where you can post to it, but the message body is hidden or kept somewhere else.
Sir Spectre
Like Master Yoda's speak, Olde English is, yes? Hehmmmmhaha!
-- From the play "Zlothello"
Edited by - Sir Spectre on 16-10-2003 00:23:43
Also, links to where the downloaded mod can be gotten should be provided along with the forum code.
I still think for people who don't want their mod in the open, there should be some sort of "hidden" forum. Where you can post to it, but the message body is hidden or kept somewhere else.
Sir Spectre
Like Master Yoda's speak, Olde English is, yes? Hehmmmmhaha!
-- From the play "Zlothello"
Edited by - Sir Spectre on 16-10-2003 00:23:43
Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:56 am
Gee. I wonder why there aren't very many people interested in this subject.
Is it not possible to run this thread in the General Editing Forum? It seems more closely related to what people would want to discuss in that section than here. I realize that this is a suggestion to TLR and the Mods but .... the audience participation needed to gain some critical mass for this is looking elsewhere maybe?
Sir S: Hidden registry? I don't quite follow.... mainly I think because my impression was that the registry is intended to give credit where credit is due so .... kind of hard for that to happen if it is a secret. Or are we talking about free to use by anyone versus, get my permission first (and I reserve the right to say no?). Wouldn't it still need to be unhidden to identify what cannot be borrowed?
I added a rule 5 proposal to the prior post which I rewrote twice.
Edited by - Indylancer11 on 16-10-2003 03:14:13
Edited by - Indylancer11 on 16-10-2003 03:21:09
Is it not possible to run this thread in the General Editing Forum? It seems more closely related to what people would want to discuss in that section than here. I realize that this is a suggestion to TLR and the Mods but .... the audience participation needed to gain some critical mass for this is looking elsewhere maybe?
Sir S: Hidden registry? I don't quite follow.... mainly I think because my impression was that the registry is intended to give credit where credit is due so .... kind of hard for that to happen if it is a secret. Or are we talking about free to use by anyone versus, get my permission first (and I reserve the right to say no?). Wouldn't it still need to be unhidden to identify what cannot be borrowed?
I added a rule 5 proposal to the prior post which I rewrote twice.
Edited by - Indylancer11 on 16-10-2003 03:14:13
Edited by - Indylancer11 on 16-10-2003 03:21:09
Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:28 am
Indylancer, I'll use a specific example. Reynen didn't want certain parts of his TNG mod to be copied or used by anyone. I'm saying there should be a way to register the mod in full on the forum, but parts aren't displayed to the general public. When a new one is added by a new modder, it will be checked against the shown and the hidden registeries alike, despite us not being able to see the hidden registeries.
The point is, all the "shown" registeries would allow new modders to do things in their mods without having to go through the effort of solving how to do them. They'll need to credit the original modder, but they can essentially take anything and everything, because it is all right there. Some people don't want to give up their hard work that easily.
I don't blame them either.
I think we've about exhausted our discussion on this until new voices come or the Bargib finds it to be a practical and doable solution.
Indylancer, if you want to stir up support about this in the General Editing thread, I say go for it. Make a thread with your views on why this is important and you want support for it. Then make a link to this thread. I can't do it, because it would sort of be advertising.
Sir Spectre
The point is, all the "shown" registeries would allow new modders to do things in their mods without having to go through the effort of solving how to do them. They'll need to credit the original modder, but they can essentially take anything and everything, because it is all right there. Some people don't want to give up their hard work that easily.
I don't blame them either.
I think we've about exhausted our discussion on this until new voices come or the Bargib finds it to be a practical and doable solution.
Indylancer, if you want to stir up support about this in the General Editing thread, I say go for it. Make a thread with your views on why this is important and you want support for it. Then make a link to this thread. I can't do it, because it would sort of be advertising.
Sir Spectre
Fri Oct 17, 2003 12:35 am
OK.
I kept screwing up on the linking thing but I did it. I set up a little thread in the General Editing Forum.
If no one bites, I guess it means that it isn't such a good idea after all.
>>>OR<<<
I'm not good at eliciting opinions or motivating participation.
>>>Difficile est satiram non scribere - Juvenal {It is difficult NOT to write satire - a comment on our times}<<<
I kept screwing up on the linking thing but I did it. I set up a little thread in the General Editing Forum.
If no one bites, I guess it means that it isn't such a good idea after all.
>>>OR<<<
I'm not good at eliciting opinions or motivating participation.
>>>Difficile est satiram non scribere - Juvenal {It is difficult NOT to write satire - a comment on our times}<<<
Fri Oct 17, 2003 9:57 am
Okay - i think for this too work some things will have to be done.
Firstly - When modding, we are modding data files. We are NOT creating new code AT ALL. Everything we use MUST be in the games files already. As of yet no-one has been able (as far as i am aware) to make new individual code. At that point, it will become very very difficult to do some areas.
Also - i think certain things will have to be declared public knowledge. The best example here is NPC ships made flyable.
Each one just requires a camera, a statement abuot shipclass and type, as well as a package to sell it. Now this can be worked out by anyone who looks at the other ships and then makes changes to the existing NPC ships that differ from the original. I have already had a big useless run in with one person over this very point. NO other additions will make it flyable, and the necessary additions are right infront of the modder.
Also - for arguements sake, this went right back to Tachyon back in February this year as well, and around then was the first NPC ship flyable. So that someone was claiming they should be credited everytime someone wants to use that when it had nothing to do with them is laughable.
Hence - the reason for public knowledge on that one.
Guns - same with guns. ONly if you inlcude new effects or sounds can they really really be original, otherwise you will have to check what everyone else has done to make sure you haven't made the same weapons (using the games effects).
Most people just make superguns, but i have made about 70 guns for the houses and factions. The idea was just to extend the existing lines (class 10 salamankas/del torro (instead of del cid), Krakens, wyrms and one for the bounty hunters. Somehow i think that if these sorts of weapons are allowed to be covered, then we will run out of available guns fast! I think it should be limited to the use of new effects instead - Lets face it, we have all turned the fire rate up, damage up or down etc etc many times.
Other weapons - like missiles and torps are the same. It will be nigh on 'impossible' to try to claim sole use of a torp doing 25k hull damage as anyone can create this - otherwise this could turn into a farce of a race when people churn out hundreds of gun ideas just to cover all bases.
Systems - really necessary? I would be surprised that anyone copied the nexus - i hated that system. NOthing to do there.LOL. Anyway. Fair enough on them - but to what point we take that as done. for example, i have built several systems which use the 3d nature of the game - things are up and down as well as left to right, and forward/back. I also have tradelanes travelling lik that too. Is that general covering with this or not? Is it only if they match your system overall, or are points like that in there too..............otherwise it could get ugly as protective people seem to just shout theif if farts smell familiar. I don't really see how there will be systems copying, but whatever - go for it. I just think it will be difficult to discern at what point it is deemed a rip off. Perhaps a method where a moderator or someone plays the original one, then the new one, and deciedes if there is enough similarity for him to know or predict where things are in the system.
Ships - new ships - Good. Go for it, in some cases this is too late - but go for it.
Equipment. Many gaems have upgradable equipment, and since many of us have been flying with Uber hull for a long long long time, the mountable equipment is as debatable as the weapons/NPC ships. Why? cuase certain lines of text make engines mountable (well - so you can see them/unmount/buy/mount them), as well as armor, scanners, tractors,etc etc All of which are already in the game, in SEVERAL different varieties. At that point, i think it was actually intended in the original to be able to mount new stuff like an upgraded scanner.
It is another grey area of claims.
However, i do feel custom effects, music, ships, models etc etc should all be actively moderated by this method you are talking about. Something that offers protection to work done by the creator. When it comes to the ini files, it gets difficult, but with models there are clear cut definitions there. Good idea for that stuff.
now i know some will disagree about the areas i have mentioned, but honestly, for at least half of what was claimed, they weren't even here when it was first done, i checked.
I still think this is alot of work for something that just shows we all need to respect each other, and like Giskard said........ALWAYS ASK!
Furthermore, I would actually think it is easier if anything in Tutorials is deemed to have been made into public knowledge - with the exception of Nephilims Battleship encountesr - which he from the start desired to be fairly credited with ( i notice not alot do though..........). THe reason for that is NOT alot of us could have figured that one out. He gave that to us under condition that we credit him if using it - but like i said, not alot have done.
thats my $0.02 as you americans would say, or like the brits, there is my comments - take it or leave it..............lol
Chips
Firstly - When modding, we are modding data files. We are NOT creating new code AT ALL. Everything we use MUST be in the games files already. As of yet no-one has been able (as far as i am aware) to make new individual code. At that point, it will become very very difficult to do some areas.
Also - i think certain things will have to be declared public knowledge. The best example here is NPC ships made flyable.
Each one just requires a camera, a statement abuot shipclass and type, as well as a package to sell it. Now this can be worked out by anyone who looks at the other ships and then makes changes to the existing NPC ships that differ from the original. I have already had a big useless run in with one person over this very point. NO other additions will make it flyable, and the necessary additions are right infront of the modder.
Also - for arguements sake, this went right back to Tachyon back in February this year as well, and around then was the first NPC ship flyable. So that someone was claiming they should be credited everytime someone wants to use that when it had nothing to do with them is laughable.
Hence - the reason for public knowledge on that one.
Guns - same with guns. ONly if you inlcude new effects or sounds can they really really be original, otherwise you will have to check what everyone else has done to make sure you haven't made the same weapons (using the games effects).
Most people just make superguns, but i have made about 70 guns for the houses and factions. The idea was just to extend the existing lines (class 10 salamankas/del torro (instead of del cid), Krakens, wyrms and one for the bounty hunters. Somehow i think that if these sorts of weapons are allowed to be covered, then we will run out of available guns fast! I think it should be limited to the use of new effects instead - Lets face it, we have all turned the fire rate up, damage up or down etc etc many times.
Other weapons - like missiles and torps are the same. It will be nigh on 'impossible' to try to claim sole use of a torp doing 25k hull damage as anyone can create this - otherwise this could turn into a farce of a race when people churn out hundreds of gun ideas just to cover all bases.
Systems - really necessary? I would be surprised that anyone copied the nexus - i hated that system. NOthing to do there.LOL. Anyway. Fair enough on them - but to what point we take that as done. for example, i have built several systems which use the 3d nature of the game - things are up and down as well as left to right, and forward/back. I also have tradelanes travelling lik that too. Is that general covering with this or not? Is it only if they match your system overall, or are points like that in there too..............otherwise it could get ugly as protective people seem to just shout theif if farts smell familiar. I don't really see how there will be systems copying, but whatever - go for it. I just think it will be difficult to discern at what point it is deemed a rip off. Perhaps a method where a moderator or someone plays the original one, then the new one, and deciedes if there is enough similarity for him to know or predict where things are in the system.
Ships - new ships - Good. Go for it, in some cases this is too late - but go for it.
Equipment. Many gaems have upgradable equipment, and since many of us have been flying with Uber hull for a long long long time, the mountable equipment is as debatable as the weapons/NPC ships. Why? cuase certain lines of text make engines mountable (well - so you can see them/unmount/buy/mount them), as well as armor, scanners, tractors,etc etc All of which are already in the game, in SEVERAL different varieties. At that point, i think it was actually intended in the original to be able to mount new stuff like an upgraded scanner.
It is another grey area of claims.
However, i do feel custom effects, music, ships, models etc etc should all be actively moderated by this method you are talking about. Something that offers protection to work done by the creator. When it comes to the ini files, it gets difficult, but with models there are clear cut definitions there. Good idea for that stuff.
now i know some will disagree about the areas i have mentioned, but honestly, for at least half of what was claimed, they weren't even here when it was first done, i checked.
I still think this is alot of work for something that just shows we all need to respect each other, and like Giskard said........ALWAYS ASK!
Furthermore, I would actually think it is easier if anything in Tutorials is deemed to have been made into public knowledge - with the exception of Nephilims Battleship encountesr - which he from the start desired to be fairly credited with ( i notice not alot do though..........). THe reason for that is NOT alot of us could have figured that one out. He gave that to us under condition that we credit him if using it - but like i said, not alot have done.
thats my $0.02 as you americans would say, or like the brits, there is my comments - take it or leave it..............lol
Chips
Fri Oct 17, 2003 1:13 pm
Each mod or concept should have a sort of flags:
Shareable - if can be taken by others
Need permision - like above, but restricted
Need credit/Don't credit - if used elsewhere, to require crediting author
Open source/Public domain - use at will
This could help determining the mod and modder 'legal' status.
Tygrys
Shareable - if can be taken by others
Need permision - like above, but restricted
Need credit/Don't credit - if used elsewhere, to require crediting author
Open source/Public domain - use at will
This could help determining the mod and modder 'legal' status.
Tygrys Sat Oct 18, 2003 12:31 am
Hi Imagine.
Very belatedly. Thanks! I got so carried away with trying to get the link thing going I forgot about your note.
Hi Sir S.
Again as in the case with Imagine, my thanks to you also for your favorable comment and my apology for ignoring it before.
Hi Chips.
Thanks for looking things over. From your comments about "public domain" it seems that a registry area involving FL Original items all should be considered public domain. You can tweak them, you claim to be the first to discover you can tweak them but you cannot control what others do with t hose tweaks, etc. Am I understanding this correctly?
PS- I added provision for public domain back on the first post on page 1 but I wonder whether I should just change all of the "original FL" section to be just that.
>>>Difficile est satiram non scribere - Juvenal {It is difficult NOT to write satire - a comment on our times}<<<
Oh, and I shortened my ID to Indyl11 .... Sorry Fear Factor.
Edited by - indylancer11 on 18-10-2003 01:35:24
Edited by - indyl11 on 18-10-2003 02:42:02
Very belatedly. Thanks! I got so carried away with trying to get the link thing going I forgot about your note.
Hi Sir S.
Again as in the case with Imagine, my thanks to you also for your favorable comment and my apology for ignoring it before.
Hi Chips.
Thanks for looking things over. From your comments about "public domain" it seems that a registry area involving FL Original items all should be considered public domain. You can tweak them, you claim to be the first to discover you can tweak them but you cannot control what others do with t hose tweaks, etc. Am I understanding this correctly?
PS- I added provision for public domain back on the first post on page 1 but I wonder whether I should just change all of the "original FL" section to be just that.
>>>Difficile est satiram non scribere - Juvenal {It is difficult NOT to write satire - a comment on our times}<<<
Oh, and I shortened my ID to Indyl11 .... Sorry Fear Factor.
Edited by - indylancer11 on 18-10-2003 01:35:24
Edited by - indyl11 on 18-10-2003 02:42:02
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