no Helo is the Galactica's First Officer (Exec to you Amurricans) in place of Col Tigh and Kat's the CAG instead of Starbuck. Dualla was Pegasus's 1st Officer, can't think who the CAG was right now. Galactica's the flagship so their equivalent ranks have seniority.

Pegasus was doomed episodes ago, she was always going to go out gloriously against multiple Basestars in a hopeless fight, because that's what happened in "The Living Legend" except this time Pegasus herself became the legend. She took out 3 of the 4 Basestars? One by gun and missile, 1 by ramming and the third when her burning flight pod hit it on the axis. Maybe that's one of the reasons Adama decided to take Galactica back and not Pegasus, because the Fleet would have had a better chance with the Beast rather than the Bucket (and his guilt of course)

a point I just considered; now the Cylons have Hera, they can use her as a lever against Sharon - she's obviously going to always choose her child over her loyalty to Adama (and Helo, although he might well be coerced in the future also)

I just had to watch that atmospheric jump again - magnificent. wasn't that just the coolest thing you ever saw? but can you remember Gaeta warning Adama about doing that back at the end of Season 1, that a ship the size of Galactica couldn't jump into atmosphere and maneouvre - so that's why they had to jump in, launch Vipers, and jump out again - they couldn't have "hovered" to cover the evacuation, Galactica is a space craft only.

I don't see the tactical benefit of keeping the galactica instead of the pegasus.

The pegasus is faster, better armored, better armed, and has ammo factories onboard.

Edited out sig

Edited by - Finalday on 10/21/2006 1:52:04 PM

no tactical benefit at all, I agree; it was purely for dramatic effect, and to keep the spirit of the original series. With Pegasus lost in a glorious battle against fearful odds, we can return to the theme of "fleeing from the Cylon tyranny, the last Battlestar, Galactica, leads a rag-tag fugitive fleet, on a lonely quest, for a shining planet, called Earth..." (but they really should bring back the original score and voice-over)

bah, i also could have sworn that the last time i checked they could have taken BOTH ships out of their in one peice.

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The Shroud©/RvB TMC©

I've been giving plenty of thought to this point, because I didn't want Pegasus to be destroyed either, but there are sound plot reasons for the episode and the story arc that justify it.

Lee left all his fighters behind to protect the fleet in case the Cylons found it and/or neither Pegasus or Galactica made it back. So he had no fighter cover. Pegasus was therefore highly vulnerable and her distraction of the Cylons away from Galactica would be temporary at best, hopefully long enough for Galactica to make her escape. It also goes to show that when it comes down to it, he'll do anything to save his father (but this may not just family devotion but that he struggles with reponsibility and doubts whether he's good enough to fill his father's shoes, even though Dualla is always telling him he is, he clearly doesn't think so - this has been indicated several times in past episodes) But yes, it could have easily been written so that Pegasus got away too, but the writers chose not to let that happen.

As the show loosely follows the story arc(s) of the the original series, Pegasus would only be a temporary addition to the fleet, and as I've said, following the general plot of TOS, would have to go down in a blaze of glory, never to be seen again (as indeed just happened) This makes me wonder what other plot elements from the original series we might see in the future - we've had Kobol and the Tombs of the Gods, the tyllium asteroid, Pegasus and Cain, might we have Count Iblis? or the Ice Planet Gun? or the Ship of Lights? or the Experiment in Terra?

Whatever, Galactica is now alone again, as was always the case in TOS apart from the brief appearance of Pegasus, and unlike TOS, where Cmdr Cain's final battle though hopeless did not specifically show the destruction of Pegasus (and Count Iblis did say to Sheba that she would see her father again although he didn't state the circumstances) in the new version we know for sure Pegasus' fate.

I did rather expect Pegasus would have been gone in the first episode. I'm surprised it lasted this long, though I'm sad to see it go. It was about the most impressive looking Sci-fi ship ever, IMO. I still maintain that it could have engaged at least one more Basestar from range before starting the suicide run. Though, honestly, I don't think having any fighter cover would have helped Pegasus any. We've seen that your average Battlestar packs... oh, we'll say thirty vipers (that we ever see... perhaps we'll even say sixty to be safe). Given that each Basestar has hundreds of fighters (and all robotically controlled at that), the Vipers would simply provide more cannon fodder, and not make too much of a difference.

With all the focus in the first season given to the threat of "nukes" (i.e. nuclear missiles in space combat, or in Season two where Col. Tigh suggested that they put nuclear weapons on the Blackbird to destroy the Ressurection Ship), it surprised me that they were not part of the Pegasus suicide plan. It seemed rather that the ship was just crashed haphazardly into the Cylon capship... I'd like to have seen a bit more of a deliberate "if I go down I'm taking you with me" approach. Still, it all worked out for the best, plot wise I suppose.

The battle was quite interesting. It showed a side of Adama that we've never seen before. Despite all of the planning, cunning, and swift moves, when the ship was totally disabled, he simply stood there and said "Then that's it. It's been a pleasure to serve..." It seems so unlike him to give up like that. However, it simply brings more credit to the actors/writers/directors for being able to create such deep and powerful characters in a sci-fi show.

I've been thinking about Adama's motivation in coming up with such a suicidal plan. You will recall his tremendous guilt in allowing the colonisation of New Caprica to go ahead then abandoning them when the Cylons showed up - his conversation with Sharon at the start of Season 3 being evidence of this. I think he was quite prepared to accept the loss of Galactica as long as he succeeded in rescuing the people, he did say that the mission could only have one outcome, precisely that; we can fairly assume therefore that he meant to the exclusion of all others, including the survival of Galactica.

Also there's his own military tradition and sense of duty - to wit, look at how happy he is at the end when he shaves his 'tash off and steps outside into the corridor and sees his ship alive and full of activity again, fully crewed and operational - not virtually empty and falling to bits like it was. He'd rather have had Galactica destroyed in a glorious battle than it limp along with a remnant of a crew, running away from the task it was built for in the first place - protecting the people of the Colonies. That's the symbolism of the 'tash shaving - things are back to "normal" as it were, and he and Galactica have a purpose once again, and have regained their honour.

Do you remember back in Season 1 when Col Tigh said to Adama that despite everything that had happened, the destruction of the Colonies and the fleet etc, that he felt more alive than at any time in the last 20 years? I think there's a more than a bit of the same psychology going on with Adm Adama too. And Lee as well; didn't Dualla say to him that he was a soldier needing a war?

Nail on the head for every point there, Taw.

Except one.

I don't think the plan was all that suicidal. Actually, it was quite brilliant. The drones had their pros and cons. It did indeed give the Cylons more to worry about (and in the wrong place, thus scattering their Raiders), but perhaps if they hadn't made the threat look so big, they wouldn't have called in the second pair of Basestars. It seemed like Adama's comment "Four. We can't hold off four" meant that he designed the plan around having to only combat two other capships, a much more manageable load. I would have made some changes to the operation, however. Galactica entered the battle on the opposite side of New Caprica from the Cylons. I'm not sure how fast a Basestar moves, but it seems to me that they could have done the planet-dive from a bit farther away and jumped to the far side of the planet (if that's possible for them to fly through a planet while jumping). Actually, once the Vipers were deployed, Galactica's work was largely done. Most of the leaving civilian ships were able to make their jumps from inside the atmosphere, were the Basestars weren't a threat anyways. Had they simply maneuvered to stay on the opposite side of the planet from the Basestars, it would have at least delayed the confrontation. In fact, Adama should have taken a page from the master, Captain Kirk (think "Wrath of Khan"'s final battle), and used the nebula more to his advantage. Like Shroud pointed out, from a strictly military perspective, I think it would have been possible to make it out with both Battlestars (didn't they face similar odds in the attack on the Ressurection ship last season anyways?)

that's rather an inconsistency though. Why did Adama only expect two Basestars, when, as we saw when the Cylons discovered New Caprica, they had at least six to our knowledge? Did they reduce the force over the period of the occupation given the Colonial's limited military resources? One would have thought, given the growing insurgency, and taking current events as the model, the force would have been increased rather than reduced? And were Cylon fleet movements reported via the reconnaisance Raptor(s) to Galactica, thus causing Adama to believe that there were only two Basestars present, because that's all that could be seen?

Galactica's taken on two Basestars before and put up a good fight (Ragnar Anchorage for example) and combined with Pegasus, the joint force is more than capable of taking two Basestars down, as we saw in Resurrection Ship (one on one, a Battlestar is more than a match for a Basestar) So if only two were expected, why did Lee say that his father was taking on too much? They must have known therefore, or at least suspected, that the Cylon capship force was more than two strong. hence why I said it was a suicidal plan (although brilliant indeed) in that without Pegasus, Galactica didn't have a hope in hell of getting away, even if the civilians did manage to escape - and Adm Adama was well aware of this; I'd say that he even wanted it, in a way.

I'm kind of thinking that the strain of leading the Fleet and being humanity's sole defender had been getting to Adama for a long time. Lay Down Your Burdens was not just a general title for the Fleet's situation, but specifically for him; with the discovery and presumed safety of New Caprica, and a President hostile to him, I think he just sort of gave up the struggle - he and Col Tigh are getting on, they're past retirement age and they would have retired had the Cylon attack not taken place. Apparently we're going to be seeing insights into Adama's actions in the period prior to the Cylon attack on the Colonies in a forthcoming episode called "Hero" and the Admiral doesn't come out of it too well, it would appear.

it's an interesting twist on TOS, don't you think? Lorne Greene's Adama was noble, dignified, wise, benevolent, always right, never gave up, virtuous to a fault; while Olmos' Adama, albeit a great man, has the all-too-human weaknesses that one would expect an old man in his twilight years to have.

Slightly changing tack: the Oracle said to No 3 that not only would she know true love when she found the child Hera, but that it would unravel all that the Cylon occupation had done. What do you think that might mean? Seeing as the civilians had already escaped, it couldn't mean that it would bring the occupation to an end as it already was at an end. So it must mean something deeper - it really intrigues me! And was Roslin upset over Mya, or Hera?



Edited by - Tawakalna on 10/23/2006 9:58:44 AM

only 24 hrs to go until I get "Collaborators" - won't be the emotional high of last week, but still, can't wait!

Finally, the new episode has aired!

Taw, I wondered what was going to happen when you mentioned the title was "Collaborators." Didn't take too long to figure that out. As with the last episode, this one wrapped up a few loose ends that makes me think that we're in for the next major phase of the plot soon.

I won't give away too much more just yet in case it hasn't aired world wide just yet. However, given what transpired in this episode, everything ended (for once) just how I wanted it to.

Seeing the Cylon fleet amassed once more was rather frightening. Perhaps, a half dozen Basestars, thousands of raiders, and most frightening of all, a new Ressurection Ship. If there is ever an all out battle again, the fleet will be well and truely screwed.




Edited by - J Dawg on 10/27/2006 10:07:01 PM

I watched it this afternoon, on Al-Tawzeera TV

like you say it tied up a few loose plot ends, although it was subdued compared to last weeks tour de force. The Zarek/Roslin strand worked out well, Tom still showing he's quite prepared to indulge in skullduggery even for, giving him the benefit of the doubt, valid reasons, although one can presume there was more than an element of personal vengeance in his actions.

Disappointed with how the Jammer storyline padded out - last we saw, no-one knew he was in the NCP and he was helping Roslin retake Colonial One. Next, he's in front of a kangaroo court. Where did the evidence come from? There didn't appear to be any time during the rescue to grab any files, so how did the Circle know he was working for the Cylons.

The Gaeta story was obvious, although it worked well to push the Starbuck story on. I expect Gaeta will be treated disdainfuly despite his reprieve until he gets a chance to redeem himself later on, and quite what's going t happen to Starbuck I don't know - again, it would appear she's being set up for some major plot development later on, part of the destiny that's been mentioned before.

Personally I thought Col Tigh was the strongest part of this week's episode, he's obv going through seven shades of hell. Very disappointed with interior of the Basestar, it was old-skool Dr Who standards - they must have spent the set budgets on the New Caprica interiors. Caprica-6 turning her back on Balthar didn't make much sense either, what was her internal Balthar sayin to her about that? I'm disappointed that the writers haven't revisited that theme from Downloaded yet.

still no moe revelations about the Cylons in the Fleet, discounting Bro. Cavill there are presumably 7 left (Sharon having prev said there are Were they left behind on New Caprica, or did more join (unlikely) Did they reveal themselves on New Caprica when the Cylons took over, or stay with the Fleet when it escaped? And what has become of Boomer (the reincarnated Sharon on New Caprica) esp now that her and Caprica-6's coexistence with humans plan has failed so miserably? As 3 said to her, she doesn't want to kill anyone, so what's she going to do now?

I was a bit disappointed that they didn't show where everyone's careers went. After all, Galactica now certainly has a surplus of officers. Col. Tigh, Helo, and Apollo are all qualified to be XO (and now we see that Tigh has returned to his old rabblerousing SOB self). Perhaps Apollo will be off the list while he works to loose a bit of weight ("Hey, I've dropped half a stone! Adama: Keep Jumping.". And what will become of Starbuck now that she's back and has dumped Sam? I rather expected it to happen. I thought of their relationship as more of a passionate fling, and thought it a bit odd that Sam was the more serious partener. In addition, the line "I need to hurt someone, and it might as well be you." seemed a bit cold, even for her.

An aside on units:

I see from this episode that they kept the 'stone' as a unit of measurement from the original series. Yet, we have days, minutes, hours, seconds etc, while the old unit of "Centons" for time seems to have been discarded.

An aside on technology:

This episode's executions also provided a bit of insight on the mysterious Viper launch tubes. I was always quite curious about them, and now am even more so. The design doesn't seem terribly logical. There is a track along the floor that I suppose they ride in during launch, but these tracks end right at the interior edge of the tube. Thus, I'm left wondering how the Vipers get from the actual landing strip (elevators perhaps?) to the hangar bay, and then into the launch tubes. Surely they don't just "transport" them there. Also, it seems that each tube has its own control station. I'd suppose that Galactica carries, perhaps fifteen or twenty tubes per pod... that's a lot of control stations. Not that that's a big deal for all their modern technology etc, but I'd think they'd have some kind of master control station instead... that's fifty or a hundred extra personnell they'd need just to push a button (they just hit the famous "turbo's" in the original series anyways).

tey do seem to have glossed over a lot of things like that, don't they? Helo is presumably just a.n.other CIC officer, repeating the XO's orders and helping Gaeta fix the phones (outrankd by Captain Kelly, the guy at the console) oes Helo's Sharon have free run of the ship now?

The lack of yahrens, centons, and microns has been mentioned before. The use of our system of weights and measurements, including last week 99,000 feet, and previous mentions of miles and even metric measurements, is purely artistic licence for audience convenience - this was discussed with the writers, and they answered that yes, they could have used the systems of TOS or invented something new, ut they wanted the audience to react to these characters as if they were just like "us" but in radically different circumstances, and the same reason was given as to why in the main their technology and weaponry is generally similar to ours. When asked if this meant that they were contemporanaeous with us, ie are these events taking place at the same time as our own current history, they gave a non-committal answer; no-one knows if these events are in our past, preent or future.

However,you'll note that there are differences - how many times have you heard a pilot include "karem" as part of his enemy contact bearing report? Is this a decimal or a z-axis or a tangential bearing?

Viper launch tubes aren't terribly well thought out are they? You may recall that in the Miniseries, we clearly saw Vipers being manually hauled into Galactica's launch tubes by hand, and out again after an abort. And the launch process took ages. As did the FTL jump process, but now they just do it over and over with no apparent prep, even though Adama always says "prep for jump" no-one actually seems to do anything.

The whole Viper launch thing is to keep the spirit of TOS cos it looks cool, even if it makes no sense. I haven't even figured out how they get the Vipers from the landing bay to the hangar, let alone the tubes, or why the air doesn't rush out of the landing bays, or why the Chief's flight deck is so small, where the gravity comes from, or why we only ever see about 5 or 6 very small areas of the ship when its supposed to be 4 times the size of a Nimitz-class aircraft carrier?

I was impressed to see just how battered Galactica is looking now, burn marks and broken bits. I wonder if they've fixed that starboard landing pod yet, the one that was being turned into a museum?

Edited by - Tawakalna on 10/29/2006 1:28:47 AM