Exactly. Smith gained the foresight of his triumph over Neo from Oracle - Oracle was counting on this. Neo was only the trigger to Smith's destruction. Neo persistence was something even beyond Oracle's prophesical abilities, and this is the reason why Smith overloaded and self-destructed.

i dunno about the "couldn't handle that neo had CHOICE and overloaded" idea. Perhaps it had something to do with that but neo had always had a choice. Perhaps it was only when agent smith realised it... i'd like to think it was something slightly more complicated tho.

kumari --- "You are ALL my brothers and sisters."

i dont think smith 'overloaded' as such. Neo was plugged into the matrix via the machine capital '01'. In the final sequence between smith and neo, smith cant understand why neo keeps fighting, even when neo says its because he chooses to, this is lost on Smith. Smith cant see past the choice he doesnt understand. When smith takes control of the oracle, he gains her forsight, her abilities and memories, in essence, he has abosorbed the oracle, she is a part of him. In the final stages of the battle, the Oracle manages to come out and give Neo a hint as to how he can prevail. We know its the oracle because she calls him "Neo".
Smith always knew he was going to beat Neo, he had forseen it through the oracles powers...or maybe he hadnt, maybe it was all cocky talking from a guy who beleives he is better.

The final few moments of super brawl are the most important to understand just what the hell is going on. Neo understands the oracles message and knows what he must do, yet when he surrenders, smith is taken aback. He again cannot see past the choice he doesnt understand. "its a trick" he says, confused by what just happened and what neo just did. He knows he has to destroy neo so he absorbs him.

When all programs are no longer useful they need to be returned to the source. Neo was required to be returned to the source as part of the "zion loop". Its a hunch really, but i think both neo and smith were returned to the source at the same time, connected through the uplink in '01' the smith program was deleted. The oracle remained because she belongs in the matrix, just like every other body smith posessed. (We also know that others who were posessed by smith were recovered back to normal because we see Sati back to normal and smith asscimilated her as well)

/what Arch said

so u reckon it was def. 01 that Neo & Trin flew to? in Iraq (roughly) or is it so big now it's a mega-city?

related Animatrix question (and one i can't answer for myself because my brother-in-law has borrowed Animatrix and lent it to someone else <grrr> - At the end of the war in 2nd Renaissance Pt2, the machine ambassador (no longer looking humanoid) appears to explode, taking the UN building and NYC with itself. did the machine blow itself up to destroy the human city, the failed contraposto to 01, or did the humans do it themselves as a gesture of suicidal defiance? what dyu reckon?

chilling line wasn't it "Surrender your flesh.. and a new world awaits you" brrrrr

Edited by - Tawakalna on 17-11-2003 01:13:29

I always thought that 01's placement was an "israel" analogy. The machines being cast out of the west and creating their own "home land" free of opression and suchforth. kinda screams jew than it does iraqi

yeh i think thats the emotional analogy u get, cos u do feel a lot of sympathy for the machines initially, but if u look at pt1 when the Zion archive avatar tells u the machines created their own city in the cradle of civilisation its def Mesopotamia i.e. Iraq. I don't think there's any contemporary comment in that, i think the reference is clearly biblical and historical in nature, with the twist that Abraham and Sarah (humans) fled Mesoptamia to found the nation of Israel and start all the events that are subsequent to that, whereas the machines go BACK to the birthplace of human civilisation to found their own. which fits in nicely with the cyclic themes found throughout the Matrix "mythos" if u can call it that

i didn't pick up on smith calling neo "neo". That's pretty cool. They were definately playing with the "can't see past the choices u don't understand". Smith didn't understand much

I still don't see how he was destroyed or how the others were destroyed with him. It's funny to think that he assimilated everyone. I'll bet the maravingian got his jollies out of it

kumari --- "You are ALL my brothers and sisters."

that too. but when you call it iraq, you make it sound like your implying something of the current political climate...which it isnt

Interesting reading, the only thing that doesn't sit well with me is how Neo was able to destroy the machines outside of the Matrix.
Even if he is a force within the matrix and the machine world how can he relay that power to the physical? It's a good piece of evidence for the "Zion is another Matrix" theory, but I don't really think that's what the Wachowski were driving at.

Yo mustang!
I think that's fantasy fiction they wanted to throw in. He is the one after all But i was keen to hear the explanation too and unfortunately it was not to be. I'd like to think it was a power given to him (or enhanced) by people believing in him. (for example at the end of the 3rd movie.)

A few of the big unexplained ones for me are "what's the deal with the trainstation" and "what was the little girl supposed to be?"

kumari --- "You are ALL my brothers and sisters."

@kumari - you ever seen dragonheart? that dragon was intermittently linked with that evil king, and it's the same in the Matrix. when Neo jumped into Smith's body in Matrix1, a link was severed between Smith and the Matrix, but was replaced between Neo and Smith, so if Neo dies, so does Smith! Hence at the end of Revolutions, when Smith assimilated "Mr Anderson" he inevitably (see what i've done with that word? No? It's in the Matrix dumbass lol) destroyed himself! I thought thered be a connection between them at the end of Matrix1, and this was clarified in Reloaded when Smith says to him "Do you sense it? Our connection?" Then all the other Smith's run on and some serious ass-whooping commences etc. You know the story. But like I said, Neo and Smith were linked, so when Neo dies, Smith dies, and vice-versa!

-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-

Pueblo Station: "We expected them to come from the Silverton Asteroid Field, but they came from the Copperton Field and completely surprised us! The Liberty patrols were shot down like flies"

Williard Research Station: "Two more torpedoes have hit the Harmony, and our fighters are being shot down like flies!"

I wish Trent would say: "Flies are an intelligent animal with the shortest lifespan of any winged creature, they are very difficult to shoot down, and cannot breathe in space!"

http://www.cardamine.net/

ok get yer cogitating gear around this

"proof" that Zion is also a Matrix. cast your minds back to Reloaded. what was the one overriding plot theme? Trinity's apparent death. This is predicted in the very first scene and is repeated throughout the film, until finally the event becomes actual, and the Artichoke presents this to Neo as the choice he has to make. clearly this has long been pre-determined, the Artichoke is well prepared. but a paradox is presented to us! Trinity's "death" is contingent upon a chain of events that occur outside the Matrix and over which the Artichoke supposedely has no control.

A bolt shears on a gangway on a human ship, purely by accident. this eventually leads to the destruction of said ship and the death of all on board, including those currently plugged into the Matrix. This means potential disaster for Neo, Morpheus and the Keymaker and everything they hope to achieve, unless Trinity enters the Matrix against Neo's warning at the risk of her life. do u see what I'm driving at? if the sheared bolt is truly an accident, then there is no predetermination and how can the Artichoke, The Oracle and Neo know what's going to happen? obv they aren't magic, or psychic; A & O aren't even human, they're programs and weigh probabilities, make intuitive leaps based upon those probabiities, but ultimately like all programs rely on data. how can they assimilate data that hasn't happened and is beyond their control, if it's just an accident? The theme of causality, cause and effect, is hammered home in Reloaded, indeed the Merovingian's speech is about nothing else.

(edit for clarity: Neo as we are shown has only limited sight at this stage, so he only sees what he percieves to be Trin's death. this is a point the Oracle clarifies him on. however we are given pointers that she is ultimatlely doomed, the most obvious being Persephone telling her that such a love is not fated to last. is this just jealousy on P's part? no i dont think so, she has already made it clear that she just wants to remember what emotions and memories a passionate embrace can bring. if she's just another program why would she want to do this? she ain't no prog, or at least wasn't once, she's human! and so is the Merovingian. in case anyone hasn't got it yet, M is a previous One, P is a previous Trinity, over the years since they had their turn, they've been in hiding in the Matrix along with lots of other old programs.)

Therefore as I see it the logical conclusion is that the "real" world of Zion operates under the same conditions as the Matrix itself, meaning that it must be a similar construct, for there is no other way that makes sense to me for these events to be "predictable" The accident was always going to happen, for it was no accident, and sparks off a chain of events that leads Neo to the choice he HAS to make and has already been laid out for him. the world of Zion is as much an illusion as the Matrix itself. What do u reckon?



Edited by - Tawakalna on 17-11-2003 15:43:26

Edited by - Tawakalna on 17-11-2003 20:18:05

Didn't tjose on board die because Bane shot them? Or did they show us an other ship in "Enter the Matrix"? He killed members of two ships.

-- The Lancersreactor: where the screenshots are never blurry, and the script kiddies get publically kicked around.

The Lancersreactor FAQ
The use of signatures

curses! i haven't seen that bit yet! haven't bothered with EtM, u see! kids got it,played it once, & f*kt it off as crap

however, that doesn't affect my argument, i think? i'm talking about the other ship in M2, not Niobe's, that bald blokes (Soren?) anyway he dies in the power plant. does EtM show sabotage to that ship? if that was the case that would blow my argument out of the water, but if it wasn't, I'm still safe! Bane's ship was part of Locke's attempted counter-attack, not one of the 3 that were to assist Neo.

Edited by - Tawakalna on 17-11-2003 19:33:54

Edited by - Tawakalna on 17-11-2003 19:36:31