if Neo's "sight" does come from the Oracle then it must by definition be limited only to the Matrix, because she is circumscribed by it's rules (for the reasons i stated above) and doesn't explain how any of his powers work outside the Matrix esp. before he meets the Artichoke, even if it's only a vague sense of the impending future. if u follow this reasoning, u must conclude that Zion Is A Matrix.

if Neo's power is a latent psychic talent that humans possess to a greater or lesser degree (and i don't think it is, as far as the Matrix story is concerned) then again u must drop the Oracle out of the equation, precisely because she isn't human. How can she possess a power that only an living breathing human can have?

on ZIAM. even if u go with the ZIAM theory, how does that preclude Neo still having to return to the Source? he still has to make the choice and reveal the anamoly and return his program to the source, for the system to be "reset" This clearly excludes killing him before he does this. doesn't mean that the effort won't be made to kill him within the needs that the over-riding objective, the Choice, makes necessary. the Agents and the Sentinels have strictly limited horizons, they are foot-soldiers, grunts; the Architect sees the "bigger picture" as does the Oracle, so the Agents and Sentinels think they're doing one thing (trying to kill Neo & company) while they may well, in fact, be doing something else altogether (preparing him and leading him to the inevitable purpose of his existence. that word again, Purpose.) Again there's a fairly obvious contrast to be made here between the machines/programs and humans, the former generally follow orders, the latter generally do not. Choice.

as to the continuance of the attack on Zion (if u go with ZIAM) this does not obviate the need for an invasion. as far as most of the machines go (and all the people as far as we can tell) the war is still real and actual, in a parallel sort of way to the wars in 1984, in that they are both real (in that everyone strives for victory) and simultaneously irrelevant (as there is no true conclusion, victory is not the aim of the war, and the war in one form or another goes on forever) the war as we see it presented to us is just another system of control! the only real aim is to force the One into a position where he must choose, between the (real and apparent) salvation of his people, or the life of the one he loves the most. it's beautifully structured actually. he has to make this choice for the system to "purge" itself and then the cycle restarts, each time the nature of the dysfunction becoming clearer and closer to resolution.

btw I was told by a psychologist some years ago that deja vu is simply the brain catching up with processing information, if its chogging it refers to a memory it already has, sort of like Windows finding .exes for deleted shortcuts that are never the one u want! i don't know how true this is, but it sounds fair to me.

edit - a big plus for me happiness levels is that the matrix has got ordinary people talking and thinking about issues such as awareness of existence, predetermination etc stuff like that, who prior to these films wouldn't have bothered. obv us geeks always di, these ideas have been staples of SF for yonks, but to go in a pub and not hear talk of footie and pop and girl's tit (not that there's owt wrong with any of those!) but instead hear heated discussions on causality and what makes us know we're human? brilliant. never thought any big-budget multiplex fare would ever have such a resounding impact on these kind of levels. fandabidozi!







Edited by - Tawakalna on 18-11-2003 01:17:40

Edited by - Tawakalna on 18-11-2003 02:33:25

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Neo and Smith were linked, so when Neo dies, Smith dies, and vice-versa!

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Nice. I like that (and yeah i've seen dragon heart). I totally like that dude.

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Trinity's "death" is contingent upon a chain of events that occur outside the Matrix and over which the Artichoke supposedely has no control.

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I dunno... what if the artichoke prepared in the 5 seconds following trinity's entrance to the matrix? I'm sure he had the CPU speed More to the point... What if he had prepared because it had happened several times before and he was becoming "exceedingly good at it" I think it's just part of the prophecy.

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brilliant. never thought any big-budget multiplex fare would ever have such a resounding impact on these kind of levels.

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w00t w00t w00000t! I didn't pick up on the cause and effect issues happening outside the matrix (the bolt and the ship blowing up). I think it's fantastic. These are the subtle themes that the matrix is crawling with. I love it!

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the world of Zion is as much an illusion as the Matrix itself. What do u reckon?

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I have this optimistic belief that the real meaning behind the similarity is that the real world is an amazing place. It's "not so different" from the matrix. I think there are a lot of good points which are finding parallels between the matrix and zion. I think a lot of people are seeing the same thing but for me there are 2 completely opposite and acceptable reasons.
1 - zion is like the matrix because zion is a matrix.
2 - zion is like the matrix because the matrix is like reality.
i'm one of those spiritual believer types who likes to agree with number 2. I think many of neo's abilities come from the fact that he is the one and it is prophecy (ie. "just because". I don't side with the idea other characters (the oracle for example) giving him powers. I like the idea that he is the one. "the man". The saviour. Etc.

All-knowing = Omniscient

kumari --- "You are ALL my brothers and sisters."

Edited by - kumari on 18-11-2003 07:52:29

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Trinity's "death" is contingent upon a chain of events that occur outside the Matrix and over which the Artichoke supposedely has no control.

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I saw this another way entirely, whereby past versions of Neo have always picked replacements to the those destroyed at Zion versions 1 to 5. Thereby those replacements are born of the Matrix and have been raised within the Matrix. thereby thier thought patterns have been altered with a certain amount of control, that being that the machines have had in some way shape or form, a part to play in thier upbringing. Even from another point of view, Smith was able to upload himself into a human body, thereby it is not entirely unbelievable that the machines were able to have a very strong influence on the personality of a human being.

What I am driving at here is that the founders of Zion had very predictable personalities, the machines had a select knowledge of how they were to react to certain situations. Therefore they had a starting point and from there they were able to extrapolate the very complicated chain of events that were to occur from the creation of zion to it's eventual demise. In short the machines became exceptionaly good at predicting human behaviour much like we predict the weather, even to the point where they were able to predict the moment where Trinity dies and Neo must make a choice. However like all mathematical equations there was a flaw, whereby they hadn't predicted Neo's final decision to save Trinity's life.

Edited by - Mustang on 18-11-2003 08:35:27

i love this quote:
"Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness."

i dont have a great deal to say about this or its relevance, i just think its good.


"it has to start somewhere, it has to start sometime, what better place than here, what better time than now"

I saw it in a similar way to Mustang. To me it was all about control. The machines believed that they could control the humans, and vice versa. The scene in Reloaded when Neo takes a walk to the lower levels of Zion with the counciller illustrates this point perfectly.

In the End when Neo who was just taken over smith, there is a small moment when the Machine who had bargained with Neo, did something and we saw it in neos weird electrical FIREY orange vision, i don't understand what exactly was going on when he started twitching and was then all of a sudden glowing, can anyone explain what the machine was doing to neo?

Also at the end when neos body is is taken away, does anyone know what happened to it? all i see the the machine carrying his body going upwards and forwards.

In regards to the Matrix trillogy, it has a fine theory that nothing is reality, Very interesting and lol quite constantyl continuous. Does anyone think there will be another Matrix film now? i have made a bet with my dad that there won't lol

no more films.
Neos body is taken off as a futuristic version of a viking funeral type thing. Body placed on a burning raft and sent out to sea.
Neo's gold vision in the real world is similar to the green "code" vision he has in the matrix. In the matrix he can see the code and programs. In the real world, because he is permenantly connected to the matrix and therefore, the machines, he can see their energy flowing through them. This is because the energy itself comes from the matrix.

Theres speculation that neo isnt dead, hence the gold vision when he his taken away at the end.

There HAS to be something real. If the matrix is just a prison for your mind, no matter how big and complex the program, your going to have a body somewhere. And THATS where is real.


"it has to start somewhere, it has to start sometime, what better place than here, what better time than now"

i dun mean nothing is real, i mean nothing is real to humans, u can never be unplugged from the matrix, gah!!!

Arch, does it though? I can see where ur coming from on this, and the question was never satisfactorily answered in the Matrix. in M1 we are told that the body cannot live without the mind, and vice versa, death in the real world means death in the Matrix. ok fine, makes perfect sense as far as the story presented in the Matrix goes, Neo's obv. different in this respect of course.

THEN in M2 we are shown that a program, Smith, can leave the Matrix and possess a physical human body. Great story twist, but it has nagged me since I saw M2. ok u can argue that this was something Smith gained from Neo directly or indirectly, but if a human within the Matrix who is reduced to a program essentially can have his program taken over, i.e. Bane, by Smith, then doesn't this overturn the body cannot live without the mind business? after all Bane's mind is gone, only Smith is left; shouldn't Bane's body die? of course we're meant to accept that this is part of Smith's new power, that he can hijack a signal and make it his own, but the conclusion then is that the human mind gebuinely is nothing more thana load of electrical signals, and if a program can survive in a stolen human body outside the Matrix, then humans should be able to live in the Matrix without corporeal bodies, just like programs do, circumstances willing. unless u wanna start talking about souls and stuff, which i don't think comes into it at all.

So if Neo is truly dead outside the Matrix, his mind may have survived within. I dunno, that really is just speculation on my part, but it would seem plausible. or he might be just in similar state of limbo as we see him at the beginning of M3. I still don't think there HAS to be somewehere real; just somewhere everyone "thinks" is real. maybe "real" reality exists elsewhere, maybe only the Artichoke, the Oracle and possibly the One are ever aware of this.

having said all that, M3 in many ways fails to explore the avenues opened up by M2 (which in retrospect i think was a lot more interesting) and concentrates on just telling a concluding story in a fairly straight forward linear fashion. Only the directors know why they did it like this, maybe they got fed up, maybe they decided to open up speculation the close it down. I can only really go with my own interpretation based upon what I've seen and the pointers and clues that were rich throughout M2 simply aren't there in M3, apart from the odd ambiguous line here and there. Maybe I'm looking for too much, i don't know, maybe I'm giving the Wachowski's credit for something that wasn't deliberate on their part or just not what they intended. Perhaps they intended to present contradictions and paradoxes and to let people make up their own minds. Myself I still think M3 was a missed opportunity but thats just imho. When i compare M2 with M3 and think "so where did this plot strand go to then?" i can't help feeling I'm completely on the wrong track in the end. Maybe the Wach's just wrote themselves into a corner and couldn't figure a way out - these are their first films I believe (is that right, they haven't done anything b4 the Matrix?) and the directors I admire, Kurosawa, Bergman, Fellini, Kubrick, Mann, Wier, R.Scott, Tornatore and just maybe Peter Jackson, have a rather more expert touch and don't create cul-de-sacs for themselves (although they might for the viewing public!) that's not detracting from what the Wachowski's have done, M1 will always rank as a great film and it will be a long time before it's bettered by a sci-fi film for jaw-dropping originality. What i think it does show, however, is that keeping so much of the creative process to themselves esp. as far as the screenplay was concerned, might have been a mistake. Most directors devolve that job onto a screenplay pro, even if its their own, and get on with the business of directing. I can make no criticisms of the Wachowski's visual abilities, they're tops, but then they took a lot of advice and got a lot of top people involved, and that's why the shots all look so great. But script and screenplay have got progressively confused and clichéd from the peak of the original, and that's where the trilogy falls down, and that u can lay fairly i think at their door. Incidentally it's the same reason Animatrix works so well in the main, they were producers on that and supplied only general ideas, other more experienced hands took over and made the Animatrix project the success it was/is. I honestly think in retrospect they could have let someone else direct M2 and M3 (like what happens with Alien films) and been exec. producers and supplied the conceptual input, with someone else saying "thats a good idea, that's a cr*p idea" All Joel Silver does is front for them and handle the l.s.d. (pounds shillings and pence for u non-Brits)

btw, a prescient blind Messiah possessed of superhuman powers, who apparently dies, but we aren't sure if he actually is dead or not? now I wonder where I've seen that plot device before! a free Helpdesk Horror to the first person to answer...


Edited by - Tawakalna on 19-11-2003 22:35:40

Jebus?

Dont forget the final shot of Neo as he dies, arms stretched out like a crucifix


"it has to start somewhere, it has to start sometime, what better place than here, what better time than now"

good observation, and ur meant to see the Jesus ref. in that shot, but that's not what I'm thinking of, besides Jesus wasn't blind, and he did die. No, it's def. a SF derived reference, very famous too.

i cant think of anyone famous in SF thats blind other than DareDevil, and Geordi LaForge.

Sorry

ur not trying hard enough. I'll give u a clue, it involves deserts. u must get it now!

Jeez, it's Dune! Muad'dib was blinded at the end of his reign. What do I get with my points?