@Bob,

---

I think the system sizes should stay as they are in FL, if not larger ... a larger system gives a more proper feeling of scale.

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Yeah, the enormity of FL systems does add realism. But if you remove tradelanes for the proper Privateer feel, then you're also going to hurt the privateer feel because the game will sloooowww down because it takes so looonnng to get everywhere. Then it won't be Privateer, because it won't be fun.

---

There's abit of a problem there ... there isn't nearly enough space on the map for that <G>

---

As for not enough room on the map, maybe. Maybe not, a question no one ever answered me on a long time ago when I first joined, was if systems can overlap. The general way editors of mods think of the map is that a certain distance represents one system and that system is a certain length edge to edge. But that system length doesn't necessarily get represented in the sector map, it could be that if I placed two systems side by side (no space between them) on the sector map, while practicallly the systems would be overlapping if real, the map wouldn't take that into concern and list them as if they were light years apart.

No one has ever tried, to my knowledge, to find out if overlapping is possible. You could possibly "squish" a whole lot into that game.

Sir S

Edited by - Sir Spectre on 2/13/2004 10:11:26 PM

I figured if you boosted the cruise engine speed, you could probably afford to make far larger systems.

(BTW, warzog, email for you)

Edited by - Bob McDob on 2/13/2004 10:48:16 PM

Sir Spectre:
1)As I said, there's MORE in the Sirius systems than in the Privateer ones.
--a) Enlarging each system, not to the size of New York (the largest) but still enlarging them.
--b) There are actually 4 different sized systems in Sirius.
-----1) Most are like New York, 100,000x100,000 units.
-----2) Several are 1/2 the size of New York, 50,000x50,000 units.
-----3) A few are 1/3 the size of New York, 34,000x34,000 units.
-----4) A couple are 1/4 the size of New York, 25,000x25,000 units.
-------If you imagine a line straight up, and on straight right, from New York's sun, you'll see the 2nd smallest, 1/2 sized system in FL. (The map is scaled so they look the same size.) In the 1/2 area are 2 planets, a moon, 4 bases, debris field, a jump gate, and quite a few patrols; police, navy, pirates, bounty hunters, plus freighters, transports, csv's, etc.
THAT's what I want to do with Gemini!
Each system will be slightly bigger than in Privateer, but not so big as they become annoying.
(As you said.)
But at the same time, cram as much as possible into each system, and still remain faithful to Privateer.

--c) The map is made up of a grid.
----1) It's 16 points wide, by 15 points high, for a total of 240 possible system locations.
------Of course, 240 systems would be side-by-side-by-side-by-side. Kinda boring an difficult.
------There are no up/down co-ordinates to the grid.
------The grid is controlled by Universe.ini
------And remember-systems like New York run almost 300kb! Times 240 systems? That's 72mb! One helluvan up/download! (And that's without the ships, or the rest of the mod!)
Using the systems I'm planning on modding, which are the 1/4 to 1/2 sized systems... (Tau, Omega, and Omicron systems)
They run from 15kb to 100 kb. Times 100=1.5mb-10mb!
Add that to the current mod's 15.6mb (without the 7.7mb Audio mod) and the mod jumps to 17.1mb-25.6mb. (Unzipped)
Add the Banshee, Concordia, Galaxy, Orion, and the Tarsus, and the mod (without the Audio mod) will jump to around 21mb-29mb!
(Which is one of my reasons for not wanting to cram to many ships into the mod!)
Zipped as tight as I can get it, I might be able to squeeze it down to 8-15mb.
But do you know how long it takes to debug that? Wanna be a Beta Tester?
And I don't have DSL, so that 8mb-15mb is about 1 1/2-3+hours for my DUN!!!
My 2 other (under 100kb) mods took 20 minutes to email.
V1.06 took 45 minutes. V1.07 has taken up to an hour to email to my beta testers, and thats at 4mb.

Edit 2:
The v1.07 mod zips to exactly 4mb.
Take out the ships, and it zips to 228kb.
Quite a difference.

Edit:
Bob-got it!
And replied.

Watch your 6!

Edited by - warzog on 2/13/2004 11:19:30 PM

Edited by - warzog on 2/13/2004 11:30:54 PM

keep in mind, that Privateer was Wing Commander and therefore Wing Commander ships should be in the release. This mod should have as many ships as possible and it should not be limited to the Gemini sector. How many ships were in Freelancer? And how many in Priv1? Do you suggest to remove the Vindicator, Hellcat, Vaktoth, Paktahn, Concordia, Morningstar , Arrow, Thunderbolt and other ships I was working on just because they were not in the original Priv release?

How 'bout expanding the universe? Keep in mind that the original Privateer was released in 1993. Woudn't you think that if there were already Broadswords and Dralthis that other ships would be also present? Think about it. I personally have no intentions to waste my time working on ships,that will not be featured in the mod.

Oh yes, I forgot this is a Priv only mod.



Wing Commander Saga
Wing Commander Saga Forum
~Project Head of the "Wing Commander Saga: Battlegroup Serpent" Project
I still loveWing Commander. Given the right opportunity, I would definitely revisit it." - Chris Roberts.

Now come on, this is a silly argument. We can have mainstream WC ships without having them predominate and lose the Privateer "flavor". warzog is right in that we should limit the amount of ships - it wouldn't make sense to have 50 ships from all over the WC canon flying around in the same place at the same time, and anyway it'd be hell for debugging. That doesn't mean the models will go to waste, though - they could be used in a later spinoff WC mod that uses the current one's architecture, so to speak, and builds upon it. Tolwyn, look at your own WC Saga - I may be wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure the Hermes campaign and the Courageous mini-campaign use different ships.

My take on this is that we should try to satisfy the people who will play. This is the only total conversion with Wing Commander OR Privateer ships in existance, and I think it'd be a shame to disappoint the fans of either game. Here's how I think the mod roles could go: warzog should work on the Privateer section of the mod - after all, it's what he's best at. I'll convert the models Tolwyn sends me and work on integrating the ships into the Privateer mod to hybrid-dize it. That way nobody will need to step on anyone's toes.

What I know is that the mod - hell, any mod as small as this one - needs to keep a semblence of cohesion. I don't mind if warzog works on the Privateer-only dealie in conjunction (and this is just me, but I'd encourage him to release it in parallel), but we can't do the mod without him. He has proven time and again an invaluable member of the team, and the only one who's worked on it consistantly and debugging it. In my mind, the current mod is very much warzog's project. If he goes, the mod will lose its most dedicated, tenacious modder and I don't know if it would be able to survive like that.

This is not to say Tolwyn is unimportant. Far from it - as the lead ship converter and the best with a 3D program. He's the only permanent member of the team who can help us acquire and convert 3D models, and I like to think his professionalism towards it has permeated the mod as a whole. Half a year ago when I was working alone, I thought his standards were a bit too high, but I realize now that you need standards for this sort of thing or else nobody will play it, and I'm grateful for his role in the mod. I'm quite frankly impressed that he's been willing to dedicate as much of his time as he has towards this mod, when he's already giving 110% on his current one.

As for me, I never really planned on staying on the team at first - my idea was to drop the idea, link to sites, and hope other people will pick up on that. But now it seems, I'm not entirely sure how, the mod has become an obsession of mine, and I'm determined to help see it through, even if it takes until Freelancer 2 is released. But nothing will happen if everyone leaves - it takes the TEAM to see a mod through, especially one as ambitious and total as this one. It'd be a tragedy to see it sputter out of steam and die, especially when the momentum has been so good. And if the team ends up splitting, it will more than likely discourage and confuse potential new team members.

I'm sorry about ranting like this, but I needed to say my peace.

Edited by - Bob McDob on 2/14/2004 1:26:35 AM

Tolwyn:
I'm not trying to say we should scrap any model.
Because I am limited by my Dial-up Network connection, file size is VERY important.
In order to upload a mod to Lancer's Reactor, I have to email it.
And Lancer's Reactor is the best place to get it out to the players.

And, since the fundamental program is constant...
And because I've designed the mod in such a way...
I can put ANY ship ANYwhere!
Since Bob's original mod had a lot of Privateer ships...
And You have a lot of Wing Commander ships...
I'm making TWO (2) mods...
1-a Wing Commander mod
2-a Privateer mod

EVERY ship you've given me, that works, is in the mod.
And the ones that don't work, I've told you about.
(Currently, just the Cutlass.)

I think that having 2 mods is the best route to go.
After all, the only difference between the 2 will be some of the ships.
What do you think?

Bob:
Thanx, but I have no intention of leaving.
My sole desire is to make the BEST Privateer mod possible!
Since I'm not a modeler, I am dependant on you, Tolwyn, and others to do the models.
Since many of you want a Wing Commander-ish mod, that's what I'll do.
But, making a Privateer version too only requires an hour, or so, of switching out ships & loudouts.
So I can do both, at the same time.
Absolutely no problem.
(I'm not sure why I hadn't thought of it weeks ago.)


Watch your 6!

Actually, maybe deep-down I did think of it...
After all, I did design the mod to make swapping out ships fast, and easy.
In fact, it was while I was checking out the Cutlass, and it didn't work, that I decided to see if it was the mod, or the ship, so I ran through the ship's in Bob's old mod.
The ease of swapping them out, a few seconds each, and the availability of all of those Privateer ships...
BINGO!
It hit me!
Do two mods!
I do Tolwyn's mod, and just plop Privateer ships in their place as they come available.
What could be easier?

Edit:
And if y'all haven't noticed...
I don't half-step!
If I agree to do something...
Well, like the old saying goes, "Be careful what you ask for, you might get it."

Watch your 6!

Edited by - warzog on 2/14/2004 2:17:26 AM

Update:
Just found a bunch of bugs!
It appears that 1 may be caused by the Armor upgrades.
And 2 more may be caused by the Sensor & Generator upgrades.
I've tried several things, and the only option left appears to be to remove those upgrades.

But 1st...
I need some sleep, and to stop these 24hr debugging sessions!
Happy Valentines Day!


Watch your 6!

Have you contacted Chips about the upgrades? I think he has solved most of the problems that came up with upgrades.

GreyViper:
I haven't had the chance.

Update, sorta:
Just got permission for the Banshee.
He said he'll send it to me, and it should be all ready to go.

Update:
Haven't found my elusive little bug(s), yet.

Started moving the Sirius systems around to match Gemini.
Only have Liberty done, so far.
Haven't changed any of them, yet.

Watch your 6!

Sir Spectre eloquently voiced a shared opinion concerning the layout of this mod.

Recreating the Gemini Sector would be fantastic.. but also, I would love to see the other sectors there as well.. As he said, I should be able to experience the game on the far fringes of the border worlds. That would be such an interesting feature.. because then exploration becomes another important aspect of gameplay. The Exploratory Services would be excellent.. to visit and map out alien territories in surreal environments like the nomad sectors of FreeLancer..

Surely this team can put together a mod that combines the WC and Privateer worlds, gemini and vega sectors, plus adding a little extra zing for flavor. Privateer was already merged with the WC universe.. remember some of the ships.. confed and the kilrathi? Merging the WC and Privateer worlds can be done in a great way here.

I always thought of Privateer as a chance for me to fly in the WC universe as a Non-Military guy.. I was still immersed in the WC universe, but not restricted to flying for the shiny brass.



Edited by - lvxoccvlta on 2/15/2004 5:27:02 AM

lvxoccvlta:
As I stated before, Fl's setup for the sector's only allows so much.
However, it might be possible to have 2 sectors given as a choice, whereby you choose which sector you are playing in.
And a save-game from one sector could be usable in the other.
Unfortunately, that is a very complicated option, and would only be added if everything else we're trying to do is accomplished first.

Watch your 6!

Yaaa Gemini Sector =) . I like how your planning on just resizing and noticed the one bout the (something) Star system 2 holes and a astrobelt. Itsn't that very much like what one of the Freeports is in (one going to Berlin) just have it that some people set up a base there. ...Pardon me i gotta go scrape some retro's off my ship its amazin what a Galaxiy can do to a few Ill placed Talon's.
Oh but will it be possible to Take my Galaxiy Out find the nearest Retro Wanna-be and turn him into ...into...A spacy Verison of Roadkill...I dunno what else to call it. Also whats with the Retro A.I that they wanna play "Chicken" With my Train o a ship they know their gonna suck void.

When the Going's get Tough, The Tough get a bigger Battleboat.
"Shotglass moments before the Tiger's claw blew up"
You Look a bit down on yer lucky,..Ya Don't say well Heres a drink for yas and don't worry bout how ya lost yer girl.
"alright we'll give you once chance drop it"..."you just signed your ow...*zoid sucking sound* And you just signed off life due to my nomad blasters silly xeno.
Ok if i am to Die by the Weapons i adore...then why does he have mass drivers and tacyon, when I adore Proton Tropedos Tacyon and Neutrons?..Silly Retro missiles are for kids, Ceturnions on the other hand Are For ME to make YOU suck VOID!

warzog: Perchance you could upload the mod files to the FTP? I could help with the bug hunting ...