Now now Tawat that is not fair. He did not follow up on your "geekdom" as a tech support or misinformation guru.

I think the daft things said in claim forms are worth a giggle. Jasper Carrot the English comedian used to make an entire stand up act out of them. Like the "I knew there was something amiss when a sad faced old man bounced off my windshield" line. The old joke for these was the Police Officer asking the lady to describe her accident:

"And what gear were you in when you hit the other vehicle?"

"I was in my Nike Top, Levis and a nice pair of comfy driving shoes."

...that sort of thing.

trust a car salesman to stick up for an insurance vampire! bl**dy typical. it is SO fair, anyway, as fair as fair can be.

last year I had to make a claim becaue of vandalism to the Tawmobile. Normally I put the beast away for the night in the garage, but I couldn't get into my garage this particular evening because of an event at the cricket club next door that went on till 2AM, the patrons have this habit of parking all round our house and had blocked off my entrance.

at some point in the wee hours, some evil little t*rd kicked my wing mirrors off and smashed my rear window. This time the damage was so extensive that I had to make a claim. It was declined on the basis that I'd said when I took the policy out that the car would be garaged every night. I had pointed out in my claim that I had telephoned the cricket club and complained and even given them the registrations of the cars blocking my garage, but no-one had bothered to move their cars. Nope, said friendly co-operative insurance company, you have not adhered to the terms of your policy so no payout, and because you've made a claim (even though declined) you've lost your no-claims bonus.

so I ended up shelling out £500 quid on repairs for two electric wing mirrors and a rear window, and lost my NCB which cost me another £400 at renewal. And the cops didn't even bother coming out to take a statement or look at the damage. Nice

In the end I took it to the Insurance Ombudsman and eventually got my NCB back, although the insurance company (Norwich Union) were very difficult about it and pretended to lose letters and claim i hadn't rung when I had. Still, that they'd moved their "customer service" dept to, surprise surrise, India, should have alerted to me to the fact that they were cheap cr*p. Nowadays, as soon as I call any company I'm buying off or thinking of buying off, and hear an Indian voice, I put the phone down and try someone else. I just know it's going to be nothing but trouble. (This year my employers foolishly bought 50 pcs off Dell, got delivered the wrong things, it took 3 months of arguing and being fobbed off by Dell to get them taken away. That we had an audiologger that recorded all inbound and outbound calls and thus could prove what the sales fool had promised to us was the only thing that clinched it. One of many reasons why I won't deal with Dell or their ilk.)

I had a not dissimilar experience with my illness cover on my credit cards etc last year when I was off work. When you take a credit card out they're very eager for you to have the accident and sickness cover (which isn't that cheap really) but if you have to make a claim something like 82% of all claims are disallowed, like mine was. Apparently I was only covered if I'd remained in work but off ill, not if I actually had to finish work because I was so ill. Plus they made me pay for a doctor's examination before they told me that. Still had 6 years of premiums off me though didn't they? And oddly enough, LloydsTSB's card insurance dept is guess where? <shakes head> And people wonder why I'm opposed to globalised capitalism.

I touched on this earlier - the reason why tech support or any kind of cutomer service is so unfailingly bad now is precisely because of global capitalism, and we're all to blame. We moan about paying over the odds, so when someone comes along and says "we'll do it at a fraction of the price" we all sign up and then wonder why this cheap service is kak and we can't speak to anyone remotely intelligent or understandable in their cutomer service dept. Because of this capitalist mission to cut cost and increase profits at the same time, what goes is quality and service (but the marketing bills go up to convince the great unwashed that everything is actually wonderful)

Take HP for example (the printer manufacturer not the saucemaker!) Not too long ago Hp had a good reputation for solid reliable kit, nothing fancy, but straightforward and ependable. The came the merger with Compaq and at the same time, t reduce costs, they outsourced all the service and started having the kit made in places like Ukraine and Hungary, and since at the time the firm I worked for was largely dependent on HP kit, we really noticed the difference. Build quality was terrible, we were failing 1 in every 4 whereas prev it has been 1 in 30 or 40 - it wasn't viable for us to stick with their kit any longer. Yet our so called trusted business partner proved almost impossible to deal with, wouldn't replace the kit, as corporate customers we were made to jump through the same dumb support hoops as home users (which didnt go down too well with me having to put up with some idiot in Mumbai telling me that I "must be having to be using the Vindoze XP operating system please"

The kit that we occassionally got from China (has CN on the HP sr no) worked fine, it was only the Eastern European stuff that kept failing us. But liek many "global" firms, HP had divided the world up into zones so all our support and most of our kit was European based (Eastern European at that) I was pleased to see the woman responsible for this disaster, Carly Fiorina, fall from grace a while back - I imagine HP will be paying for the fiasco she engendered for many years to come.

Even so, such shennigans are the norm these days. We all want stuff cheap, don't want to pay the extra for service, moan when it's rubbish, and the big companies are quite happy to give us what we want (cheap crap and rubbish service) so who's fault is it really? Everyone wants cheap phone calls but everyone moans about Indian call centres. fact is, outsorcing to India or wherever makes a huge difference in cost savings because they earn next to nothing compared to Westerners, with no unions or heath plans or associated costs for the company to pay for. Those cost savings get passed on to the customer and we're all happy to take them, turning a blind eye to how theyve been obtained.

So next time youre talking to one of the offshore call centres, remember, you've prob got more cash in your pocket than he earns in a week or even a month, and that your bargain computer was only a bargain because Barbinder is only being paid one rupee a week.

I can relate a similar tale from personal experience. The firm I used to work for, a uk veterinary pharmaceutical wholesaler, decided it would be a good idea to reduce costs by getting rid of it's long-serving local warehouse staff and employing immigrant labour (Chinese, Kosovans, Afghans, Somalis etc) who not being British or EU citizens, didn't have to be paid minimum wage. It certainly reduced costs and at a stroke profits rose significantly. But such glee was short lived, of course; errors rose dramatically as most of these people couldn't read or write English, therefore couldn't read the labels, didn't understand the packing instructions, damaged fragile products, and were being replace on an almost daily basis by new conscripts who again had to be "trained" - poorly of course. And what was the company's response? lie to the customers, spend more on glossy marketing to say everything was never better, and employ loads of customer service staff to field the deluge of complaints. So while in the short term profits rose and costs were cut, in the end market share was lost due to reduced standards of service and costs ended up rising anyway. It strikes me as utter foolishness and was one (of many) reasons why i left that firm. But the drive for short term profits has pushed many industries into adopting the same policies, which is why we're in the mess we're in today, and that's the modern capitalist system for you!



Edited by - Tawakalna on 11/2/2006 4:40:47 AM

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last year I had to make a claim becaue of vandalism to the Tawmobile. Normally I put the beast away for the night in the garage, but I couldn't get into my garage this particular evening because of an event at the cricket club next door that went on till 2AM, the patrons have this habit of parking all round our house and had blocked off my entrance.

at some point in the wee hours, some evil little t*rd kicked my wing mirrors off and smashed my rear window. This time the damage was so extensive that I had to make a claim. It was declined on the basis that I'd said when I took the policy out that the car would be garaged every night. I had pointed out in my claim that I had telephoned the cricket club and complained and even given them the registrations of the cars blocking my garage, but no-one had bothered to move their cars. Nope, said friendly co-operative insurance company, you have not adhered to the terms of your policy so no payout, and because you've made a claim (even though declined) you've lost your no-claims bonus

---

*sniff*

Odd.... that's not what I heard. Cricket club indeed. I had been led to understand that your garage is overflowing with the inventory procured from EBuy by the Missus and you've been forced to park the car on the street.

Clearly a breach of your warranty with Norwich to keep it garaged when at home.

shut up you!

Last I heared it was those chavs Taw. If you recall I suggested a series of methods and erm...impliments, which might be useful. Now the story has been diluted into a bunch of those internationally renowned "cricket hooligans".

Hmmm, I woneder if you did not just knock the mirrors off yourself while trying to manouver the jaloppy into the shack and Tawaclaimalot submitted a likkle makey-uppey insurance job eh?

nah, I've always gotten away with my made-up inshoorance claims.... erm if I'd made any, which I haven't and never would, ossifer!

hmph - gotta chime in to agree with taw about free-market-ism(it's worthy of an ISM the adherants are so out of touch) - these people think that less work for everyone = higher productivity = economic growth. someone should tell them that's not how the economy works its work X time = buying power = the state of consumer confidence = capital investment rate = business growth. this is why the minimum wage doesn't hurt the economy; you give everyone a couple bucks more per hour and suddenly the market is flowing with small spending at restaurants etc... its sad but if you work in a federal-wage state(no state raised minimum) at a mcdonalds you're not making enough money to eat there, because you're pulling in 5.50 an hour which is just enough to subside on with some help from welfare (foodstamps)

if we continue to allow these people to lead us around, there won't be any manufacturing jobs anywhere in 20 years, except maybe some token-machine-operator jobs where people sit around waiting for the equivalent of a paperjam in an otherwise autonomous factory. and hey, who says you have to work in the ****ty services industry? walmart's been evaluating robotic inventory keeping and self-checkout, so they probably won't have any use for you except as a greeter. trucking? nop, sorry - they're working on robotic trucks too...but until then they're going to be using mexican shipping services to deliver goods into the heart of our country via the SPP/cafta superhighway.

human civilization rests on three legs, they are the distribution of labor, the distribution of land, and the geographic and economic landscapes that dictate culture. right now we are heading towards a day when the distribution of labor leaves hundreds of millions of people unemployed, while the appearance of wealth is maintained by ever increasing 'productivity' e.g. cheaper chinese goods by whatever means possible. outsourcing is a fancy term that just means 'use an illegal laborer, legally' - any other explanation is bull pucky

I couldn't have put it better myself. But I'd add that if you really take a good hard look at our "free market" economies, I'd say that they aren't really "free-market" at all - they're actually plutocracies.

Firstly, and most obviously, the political system is dominated by the dictates of business. Specifically, the needs of of a fairly select number of very large businesses that carry a lot of clout.

Secondly, as we've already pointed out, domestic economies flounder, indigineous jobs are lost or under threat, but said large companies still do very nicely thank you - or to be accurate, shareholders/board members do very well nicely you.

Thirdly, what would seem to be economic insanity, reducing costs to the point that it drastically effects service and customer confidence, thus bringing about a reduction in sales, appears to be the norm for most if not all said large concerns. Why? because as long as the share price holds and the dividend goes up, board members/shareholders don't give a damn.

Fourthly, at "grass roots" level, increased raw materials cost and fuel cost coupled with higher cost-of-living and a steadi;y reducing economy (people having less disposable income to spend) suppresses small business opportunities leaving the way open for large chains to dominate - hence why even in the poorest and most depressed areas, big supermarket chains still have a field day; because there's no competition from small stores.

(there used to be a time within living memory when the situation was reveresed; small stores were for ordinary people, the big stores were for the rich folk - now it's big chains selling cheap mass-produced kak for the plebs, small specialist stores with expensive organic food and hand-made sweaters for the nobs.)

- Quite possibly one of the saddest things I've experienced since my childhood has been the demise of the "local shops" and the erosion of communities, largely as a result of the invasion by huge supermarkets. I fondly remember going up our local high street every Saturday with my mum and there being a plethora of shops all selling their own specialities - the bakers, the butchers, the toyshop, the grocers, the knitting shop (i hated that one) the hatshop, the shoeshop, electrical shop etc etc. and there was always time to stop and chat. I went back recently for the first time for many years (just passing through) and other than discount stores, charity shops, balti restaurants and a posh boutique for "furriners" there was nothing to be had. We might well be materially better off these days but we definitely lost something along the way.

But it's only in certain societies, namely Britain, America, and poss Australia. In France and Italy for example they have maintained their community spirit and traditional local economic structures, while still having internationally competitive businesses. My uncle works for Pirelli in Milan, international sales, yet he goes home every night to his house just north of Milan in an ordinary little town where my aunt rarely goes to il supermercato but shops at the thriving local stores in the town centre. No self-respecting Italian would buy his meat or veg from a supermarket; that's for tinned stuff and packet food. Nor would they buy their clothes from a supermarket, except maybe childrens' socks. (and oddly enought hats why Italian and French food tastes so good and they dress better than we do) yet in Britain and prob in the US too, folks will got to the supermarket and buy everything, just for convenience, and all mass-produced junk that doesn't last. That other countries tend not to doesn't say anything good about the English speaking world, i don't think.

Are we stupid? We must be, because we keep getting conned into buying cheap cr*p that doesn't last 5 minutes yet wonder why we can't get it sorted when it breaks, and spend hours on the phone to helplines that do anything but help (reminds me of a sort of "free-market" Orwellian double speak where everything is the opposite of what it's name suggests - ie customer care, or rather don't care; customer service, more accurately no service)

extended warranties! these are hilarious, and a complete rip-off. Tryst me I know, I used to sell them. A HP warranty on a printer costs a retailer about £6, but he'll sell that on to the punter for £35 and upwards - and here's the rub, it isn't worth the paper it's printed on. A particularly unscrupulous retailer (Swiss Drui Electricals f'r'instance) would do the deal on credit then add the wrranty into the credit thus getting even more kickback. I used to do that too to get more commission and warranties are really easy to sell, just scare the pleb into thinking he'll be left with a stone if the thing breaks (most aren't aware of their statutory rights) It's wicked, it really is.

warranties are of course a type of insurance therefore must by definition be worthless

The best example in the US is a chain of stores that starts with a W has a * in the middle and ends in Mart.

They are so huge that they exercise monopoly power-like influence over the pricing of entire classes of merchandise. The music industry is more afraid of this store chain than they are of anything else. While this store chain accounts for close to half of all music CD sales in the US, the sale of music CDs in these stores accounts for less than 3% of all sales, if that.

With its stores seldom being smaller than 250,000 rectangular square feet of concrete slabs over which thin pile area rugs may be strewn to highlight a more boutique like sales area, the stated purpose of the store is to offer things cheaply. In point of fact, some things just cannot be made affordably and still be good but when a store chain like this demands price cuts for fear of losing *shelf space* at its stores, the product makers are forced to bring down their prices and, in so doing, often cheapening what they make so as to still make a profit. End result as pointed out, cheap crap.

The few times I go to these stores, it is to buy something cheap and thus disposable well knowing it won't last and not caring whether it does as I mean to wear it out quickly anway.

And while you are on the "extended warranty" is worthless crap how about the "special offers" are cobblers ones?

Example 1: A car is priced at €20,000 and a "special zero percent finance" package is offered. conditions: 50% deposit and you buy at the advertised price. Sounds okay? Like I said, cobblers. If you borrow €10,000 at a standard rate the interest over 3 years would only come to €1,150 (circa) but the discount you forfeit in order to qualify for the 0% is at least €1,500.

Example 2: "All week-end! Must end Sunday! 50% reduction on selected items!" Is a common tag-line from one annoying Austrailian outlet store dealing in "Bedding-Computers-Electircal". The catch is that the selected items are all the pooh you would not buy in a month of Sundays and they have been advertised in the months preceding the sale at grosly exagerated prices only to qualify as 50% reduced stock for 2 days.

These stores do not even want you to go ahead with these deals even if they are a rip off. Once you get in the door after falling for their bait you will be carefully schmoozed into somthing which does not qualify for the 0% finance or 50% reduction.

Examples of this are the "yes this one is a bargain but believe it or not the one over here is not reduced but is still cheaper" *kid with wide knot in polyester tie and brylcream hair goes to show customer a product with even more glitzy lights than the crap advertised*. The other obvious example of unselling the bargain is that the stores know that the punters who came for the 0% finance cant afford the 50% deposit so they are not so exposed to anyone actually qualifying for the deal.

music sales are very much a case in point and a classic example of a manipulated market. There's no market-forces at work there, not in the classic sense of consumer demand. What exists now is domination by the reseller chains (supermarkets as you say) limiting choice quite drastically to the top 10 and big names, whnether it be singles, albums, dvds, or games. Not so long ago most towns had an independent music retailer who, while much smaller, offered much more choice, could give advice, sold tickets for gigs, and were usually involved in the promotion of local bands. very few of these remain, now, squeezed out of town centres due to rising rents and undercut on the bread and butter by the supermarkets.

petrol stations have gone the same way in the last few years, again due to the domination of the big chain "we sell everything" policy. There are significantly less local petrol stations now (the independent ones went years ago anyway) but I'm finding on my travels that increasingly I'm having to queue up at supermarket petrol stations, most normal filling stations anywhere near a main road having been converted into dry-cleaners or car valet sites. I'm fortunate that our village petrol station round the corner is still open, but for how much longer? if not I'm faced with a 2 mile drive on the busiest roads to the nearest supermarket pump or a 3-mile drive to the nearest BP garage.

Dru - significantly aware of the "everlasting sale" phenomenon, old chum, pulled a few of those in my time as well. Possibly the worst example I ever saw was Yes! Car Credit's never-ending clearance "sale" which included guaranteed acceptance no matter what the credit history and £1000 cashback or part exchange on your old car, no matter what the condition (if it looks too good to be true, it always is) - needless to say, the car's were overpriced anyway by at least 2.5K, the interest rates on sub-prime were usurous, the cars were junk (114 point check? some folks had exhausts drop off and bearings go while driving off the forecourts!) Funnily afatre a BBc expose last year? they went out of business very rapidly. And shamefully, were a branch of the Pru, believe it or not!

Ya gets what ya pay for and if ya pays bob all ya gets bob all.

The thing is though that I blame the consumers for this. They are the ones stupid enough to fall for this crap and also the ones who refuse to pay anyway half decent prices for a good product.

A phrase I use quite often is "todays discount is tomorrows depreciation". What I mean by that is for example a punter goes to buy the same 20 grand car from my last post. He travels the length and breath of the country and moans in every dealership until he finally wears some poor kid out and gets 3 grand off. His brother, aunt, boyfriend and neighbour think this is great and they do likewise. This is what we all value and hail as "consumer power" and by god we have the right to get the best price. The problem is that the come to me with these cars 3 years later. I offer them 7 grand. They hit the roof...

"But this is a 20 grand motor your theiving scumbag salesman"(or similar).

"Yup, and you paid 17 for it. Then so did everyone else. They lost 3 grand a year every year after so that is 8, less the cost to service, 4 tyres and a bit of spit and polish so lest get back to the 7 I offered. Anyway now I can buy one direct from the dealership for 16 cause you have screwed his prices through the floor or I can go down the auction and take my pick out of a few hundred used ones, so, the bigger the discount you get off the thing in the first place the less it is worth to me."

kinda reminds me of the guy who came to me a couple of years ago with a P2-300 128mb W'98 machine he'd bought in '98, wondered why it wouldn't play his kid's latest games, and accused me of trying to rip him off when I told him that all he could keep if i upgraded it was the keyboard and mouse!

aftre I sent him away, his wife turned up a few days later threatening to take me to court/trading standards for supposedly tryingt o rip them off! my how I larfed!

i think most of us (the 68% of people who derive no benefit from capital gain tax cuts, the rolling back of the estate tax, etc) are openly hostile to walmart. Most of us don't want a walmart in our town, as we understand it has no benefit for anyone but walmart. See the Southpark Walmart episode (south park, the simpsons, family guy, american dad.... mm curious isn't it, how american cartoon sitcom shows address larger issues than shows with real actors... the plutocrats probably don't sense the threat)

I am a "protectionist" - i believe that american manufacturing should be done with american steel, in american factories. the loss of family owned businesses is a serious problem - people don't realize it but something like 80% of jobs are generated by small businesses and not mega corporations. we need a president right now who can and will bust these monopolies, particularly the telecoms which have re-conquered the countries' communications network since 1996. re net neutrality, everybody needs to keep their powder dry following this election - politicians love to pass unpopular legislation after winning the election, partly because they need to make good on their lobbyist-promises and also because they understand that voters have short memory spans.

intel has the kind of tech support i like - none. well, at least not for my mobo. personally, i would rather spend an evening playing with computer parts and settings than talking to tech support, who's probably less familiar with the product than i am anyhoo anyways, HP sucks and always has as far as i can tell(i've never had an HP printer that didn't self destruct or just die suddenly), and merging with Compaq(aka that FING company that solders EVERYTHING onto the board lol) was just the final straw. AMD/Asus/MSI all the way baby!