Hi Pete....

You are reading into my note far too much.

I was making note of the fact that radio carbon dating is relied upon by both religious and non-religious researchers of antiquities.

The James ossuary was mentioned only because it is a more current example of its use to cut the difference between those who would create fakes to capitalize on the market for ancient religion related artifacts and those that are genuine.

I did NOT say that nothing in the bible may be corroborated by archeological evidence.

Sorry guies. Don't know how to do links.

sorry Insurance guy, I must'nt have been your small print correctly (again)

isn't it ironic that we only know about life in the past mostly from accidentally preserved remains of death, or rubbish heaps. Archaeology largely relies on the stuff that got thrown away in the past. Imagine in the future if archaeologist got their main source of information about us from our dustbins and waste disposal sites? what do you think they'd say?

Edited by - Tawakalna on 12/17/2005 11:41:07 PM

Dinosaurs aint gone!

Several FACTS;

1: A T-Rex skull was found with LIVING blood cells, YEAH! CELLS LIVE MILLIONS OF YEARS AFTER THEY "DIE".
2: There were Dinosaurs on the Ark with Noah.
3: Dinosaurs are in the Bible.(its in Job, the Bible describes a Beometh)
4: Crocodiles are DINOSAURS THEM SELVES!

For more information, go to http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/ar ... osaurs.asp

thx for that useful contribution to the discussion, robbio.

a few points for your consideration:-

1. please be more careful with the capitalisation, it would appear that you're shouting at us and we don't like that.

2. whilst I appreciate your standpoint, please try to be less strident. we endeavour to have civilsed discussions here, not shouting contests. and if you're going to make sweeping statements at least try to back them up with some evidence.

3. we don't have religious discussions here, at least not overtly religious in the sense that *my religion is right and yours is wrong* However many topics do pertain in some ways to religion, as this one does, so a fine line must be made between what is legitimate discussion and what is not. Your comments are tending towards *not* - please try to be more circumspect in what you say and how you say it.

thank you.

now, if you read back through the thread you'll see that most of your points have already been raised by myself and others (i mentioned crocodiles) but crocodiles aren't actually dinosaurs, their skeletal structure is completely different. Your comment about dinosaurs being on the Ark with Noah is without any corroboration even from within Scripture itself, the Behemoth's nature being a long-time matter of debate amongst Biblical scholars. Indeed many people don't even believe Noah's Ark existed (i actually do and I went to Mt Ararat to try to find it but that's not the point) The site you linked to is scarcely *proof* and once again I must warn you about making sweeping statements based on religious faith alone. And you cannot present opinions as facts - again read through earlier posts in the thread for expansion upon this very issue.








Edited by - Tawakalna on 12/18/2005 3:28:28 AM

1;Okey sorry, but if you read some other articles, you find evidence that that stuff is actually proven true.

2; I dindt mean to seem to be shouting, I just use caps to emphasise points

3; Sorry, but I'm not trying to be against other religions, several of my friends are Buddist, one is Athest and another is Shinto.

As for measuring the length of existence, there also is dendrochronology or tree ring counting. In the American west, for example, dendrochronologists have been able to find and collate tree rings of living and fallen bristlecone pines reliably as far back as 9,000+ years. A fallen bristlecone pine tree will remain on the ground even while exposed to the elements for thousands of years. The oldest iving bristlecone now is almost 4800 years old. An even older one that appeared to have been robust and likely to have remained alive today was cut down by an over ambitious geography student in 1964. It was 4844 years old at the time.

In relative comparison, if one were to use Bishop James Ussher's (ca. 1650) strict study of the age of the Earth based upon a literal reading of the geneologies proclaimed in the Old Testament, earth came into being in 4004 BCE or about 6,000 years of age. Since then, other students of the bible have recommended an extension of the measured age of the Earth to something more like 10,000 years give or take ... depending upon the biblical interpreter ... and it mainly is predicated upon the supposition that the geneologies in the bible are themselves incomplete and that whole generations may have been skipped over.

Yeah, I BIG coincidence that they say Noahs flood was 4500 years ago, and took 90 years for the water to go down, and that the oldest tree is 4400 years old.

Too bad that earth is not, in fact, 10000 years old, but 4.5 BILLION years old.

And, uh, robbio? if you'll read his above post, there are plenty of trees older than that.

Sort of cuts a huge hole in your theory, doesn't it?

Edited by - Blackhole on 12/18/2005 10:09:20 PM

I'm sorry to say, robbio, that the argument regarding deep-time (that the Earth is truly ancient and not a few thousand years old) was concluded quite some time ago (19th Century) Even the then most ardent supporters of Creationsm (and there were more than there are now) had to surrender in the face of overwhelming geological evidence.

you must make a distinction between what you *believe* to be true, and what you can prove by evidence and demonstration to be true. There are many things I believe are true with all my heart, but I can't prove them or show any evidence. Therefore I cannot say they are *facts* or *true* - I can say that I believe they are true, but that's all. While such beliefs may be part of your life and you may adhere to them very strongly, and lots of people might agree with you, if they don't stand up to the acid-test of objective scrutiny and evidence, then they aren't *facts*

as for *they say Noah's flood was 4500 years ago* - who are *they* that would put in 2500BC, a period well covered historically and archaeologically in the Middle-East and there weren't no flood then chum. That dating also makes the Pyramids and the Great Sphinx older than your flood. Greek Dark Ages you might have a bit more luck with for that period. I actually do believe that there was a flood or some sort of inundation in the region, but much, much further back than that. For example, it's mentioned in Gilgamesh, and the Epic is older than 2500 BC.

Edited by - Tawakalna on 12/19/2005 1:29:16 AM

---

Several FACTS;

1: A T-Rex skull was found with LIVING blood cells, YEAH! CELLS LIVE MILLIONS OF YEARS AFTER THEY "DIE".
2: There were Dinosaurs on the Ark with Noah.
3: Dinosaurs are in the Bible.(its in Job, the Bible describes a Beometh)
4: Crocodiles are DINOSAURS THEM SELVES!

For more information, go to http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/ar ... osaurs.asp

---

*Sighs and gets out google

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Several FACTS;

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Ok, let's go through what a 'fact' is.

---

fact {Pronunciation (fkt) n.}
1.
Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.
2.
a. Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed: Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact.
b. A real occurrence; an event: had to prove the facts of the case.
c. Something believed to be true or real: a document laced with mistaken facts.
3.
A thing that has been done, especially a crime: an accessory before the fact.
4.
Law The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence: The jury made a finding of fact.

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Are these really facts or something a bunch of immovable Christians have decided to make up in an attempt to reconcile their beliefs in the face of an entire world using science instead of theocracy.

I've tried to be careful and avoid using the word 'fact' to support my views. Please extend the same courtesy. Especially when you're wrong

From first source:

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It is of course much less of a surprise to those who believe Genesis, in which case dinosaur remains are at most only a few thousand years old.

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Aaaaargh! Do you people learn nothing?!

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2: There were Dinosaurs on the Ark with Noah.

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What Ark with Noah? Never existed. Scientifically sound reasoning behind this view.

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3: Dinosaurs are in the Bible.(its in Job, the Bible describes a Beometh)

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I could find no Beomeths after 30 minutes of searching through the bible.

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4: Crocodiles are DINOSAURS THEM SELVES!

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Erm... well, they share a superorder (archosauromorphia). Other than that... so what?

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1;Okey sorry, but if you read some other articles, you find evidence that that stuff is actually proven true.

---

I consider something to be sufficiently 'proved' (using the word loosely, mind) if:
1: It makes logical sense
2: It is peer-reviewed/scientifically approved or at least not so presumptive as to call the conclusions it makes 'evidence' per se, or even worse, proof.
3: The writer doesn't feel the need to assert the validity of God in every sentence.
4: The source doesn't admit it is a religious website.

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Greek Dark Ages you might have a bit more luck with for that period. I actually do believe that there was a flood or some sort of inundation in the region, but much, much further back than that. For example, it's mentioned in Gilgamesh, and the Epic is older than 2500 BC.

---

I think I know what you're talking about, Taw. Though I can't remember the article off the top of my head, I remember geologists talking about how there was almost certainly a catastrophic flood in the Middle East. This almost certainly gave rise to the Noah's Ark myth.

if one considers just how widespread the Flood myth is across not only the Middle-East but throughout the Indo-European culture as well (and in some ways other more distant cultures too but that's stretching it a bit imho) then I think it's fair and legitimate to speculate a common origin for the event. Aftre all, you not only have Noah and his Ark (more on the term *Ark* in a mo') across the Semitic cultures and by extension the Judaeo-Christian tradition, but as I've already said, there's the Epic of Gilgamesh, Deucalion and Pyrhha in Greek and Roman myth, and quite a few others.

The term Ark (from the Latin arx, arcis) is somewhat confusingly applied to both Noah's big boat and to the Ark of the Covenant which was something else entirely. Especially for people from outside the Judaeo-Christian tradition this is very confusing, but there is a relationship. If you go to the Museum of Antiquities in Cairo you'll see many pitched boxes on poles that look like the Ark of the Covenant, but the model for the design is an Ark-shaped boat on poles. These are also the prototypes for the Ethiopian tabots, and indeed for the traditional sanctuary of the consecrated Hosts in the Catholic eucharist (can't remember what its called anymore - Ed, help!)

Egyptian myth, as well as the Flood, also tells us of Thoth (their god of knowledge, magic, and industry) coming to Egypt via water, and rather peculiarly, three huge ocean-going sailboats were excavated from the Pyramid complex at Gizeh in the '30s, larger and more seaworthy than anything discovered before or since in Egypt - rather odd for a desert nation who's naval abilities were limited to punting up and down the Nile. What's that all about then?

In recent years Russian and American scientists and archaeologists have been exploring the Black Sea coasts for evidence of an inundation by the Mediterranean via the Bosphorus at the end of the last Ice Age. As their results bear out, the Black Sea is a rather unique expanse of water. It's basically two layers, of radically different salinities and composition that are quite distinct, suggesting from the outset that sea-levels were probably lower until an awful lot more water got poured in from somewhere else, and the outflow of the Eurasian river basins into the Black Sea doesn't account for so much water. I understand that my insurance-selling colleauge is rather more knowledgable about the current status of this research.

I also highly recommend Eberhard Zangger's excellent monograph *The Flood from Heaven* in which he discusses his findings into the ecological and socio-economic crises of the Greek Dark Ages (fascinating stuff and quite breath-taking)

what I'd really like to think about Noah's Ark and the Flood is (here it comes!) that there was an advanced (at least Iron-Age equivalent) civilisation in the Middle-East/Indian Ocean region that existed before the last Ice Age (Atlantis, Mu, Lemuria, whatever) and that this civilisation preserved what it could of itself by sailing across the now-elevated seas to Egypt, Mesopotamia, India etc and this accounts for the rapid technological advances of these civilisations and the peculiar instances of higher technology (batteries, clocks etc) and oddities like sailing-ships buried in the sand, the commonality of mythological themes of the Flood (worldwide ice-melts?) However, I've absolutely no evidence for this apart from it tying up some loose ends and thus it's about as valid as aliens or any other crackpot theory But at least archaeologist are now pushing the dates of the commencement of civilisation back, it's increasingly accepted that the Sphinx and the Gizeh site are much older than generally thought and are probably contemporaneous with the times that the Sahara was a grassland and had regular (and heavy) precipitation. It's quayt possible that the site may have been extant from as long ago as 10,000 BC in some form although 5,500-6000 BC is prob a safer bet.

certain people are going to toast me for that last speculative paragraph, ok get on with it, rip my *theory* apart. At least i said i had no evidence to speak of! give me credit for being honest! anyway, I'm not here for a few weeks after today so yah boo sux!

Robbie ... the oldest living tree is 4800 years old. The flood "happened" 4500 years ago. Where is the coincidence?

@Pete ... tabernacle

And there is a lot of evidence cropping up that the flood legend may have originated in what is now Georgia on the eastern shores of the Black Sea which once was very much a paradise like environment and, even today, is a rather popular place for vacationers to frequent.

Many other discoveries are being made there about the activities of early modern man and, also, homo erectus . And as for h.e. , they are discovering some of the oldest if not THE oldest remains of h.e. anywhere in the world.

Edited by - Indy11 on 12/19/2005 7:33:32 AM

tabernacle; thank you! I had a mental block then (probably trauma from my years as an altar boy...!)

Georgia, ancient Colchis, is although the source for the Legend of the Golden Fleece. Sheepskins were used to filter gold in the mountain streams of the Caucasus and this eventually reached Greece by trader's rumour as *golden fleeces* of the legendary type that we see every Christmas holiday in Jason & the Argonauts (and, not at all coincidentally, look at the etymology of that word Argo, Jason's ship - looking a lot like Ark or Arx, is it not?) <sigh> so much knowledge just waiting to be uncovered, if only one had the time and resources...