The die off from massive asteroid impacts and/or massive volcanic activity or both could have taken a few centuries to a thousand years which, in overall time frames is still instantaneous.

Also not taken into account is the relative positions of the continents during those ages, pre-Cambrian, Cretaceous, etc. There was Pangeaia, there was Gondwanaland, etc. The alignments of continents when these catastrophic events occured also may have influenced how extensive the die-offs may have been.

The point of the die-offs, it seems, is that there was a major and relatively "sudden" change in environment that prompted it. ... As opposed to a disease or pathogen that had easy pickings.


>>>Global warming>>>>
From around 1200 CE, we a had mini-ice age set in that lasted until around the 1800s. It is attributed to the primary cause of the failure of the viking settlements of Greenland as they failed to adapt to changing circumstances by learning to live more like the native Inuits. You'll notice that in european artworks from that time, people seem to be overdressed most of the time.

It is hard to say or know how much human activity contributes to changes in the weather directly (by consumption of carbon fuels.)

But it also is a fact that we are dumping more "hot house" gases into the environment than Mother Nature ordinarily seems to do. While we are powerless to reverse the course of Mother Nature, so to speak, I think we have the ability to accelerate or decelerate her progress.

Slash and burn techniques to bring more forest lands into farming use, and clear cut logging to harvest hardwood trees turns former forested environments and weather into dryer and oftentimes desert ecologies.

The overgrazing of grasslands on the southern edge of the Sahara desert tends to accelerate the expansion of that desert with its weather patterns farther southwards.

And we already know that we do a good deal of damage to our own environment, by dumping toxic materials into bodies of water that end up supplying our own drinking water.

Epidemic diseases often are caused by human changes to the environment. Cholera being the most clear example.

Edited by - Indy11 on 12/14/2005 8:07:35 AM

An interesting read, and I regret that I shant be participating for fear of locking the thread. However, I will state that the book of Genisis is not only for Christians. Any religion that has scripture that includes the Torah, or Pentateuch (the first 5 books), should be included in that catagory.

I will also state that scientific method is flawed, it only produces theory speculation. Anything dealing with forms of dating materials has been shown to be inacurate, there was a story some years ago that a few people were feeding recently manufactured gold coins; made to look like those found in ship wrecks, to geese. After the process, they were dated to be from the 14-16 hundreds.

I mean if it is still called the theory of evolution when we have the Law of Gravity, well I don't know... I don't wanna be startin' somthing.

Looks like I did participate

If one accepts that there is a LAW of gravity, it opens the door to the entire notion of science and the scientific method itself being valid.

But that's the difference between those who sincerely believe in scientific discovery and those who fear it or find it in some way offensive to the underpinnings of a belief system.

Does the Earth orbit the Sun or does the Sun orbit the Earth? That was, at one time, a defining point of western belief systems.

And still is, in some cases. Link.

Nature's Law at some point states that all that is redundant shall cease to exist, because it cannot adapt to current circumstances, that would be the most logical and most sound explanation for their extinction, as to how it happened.. who knows. scientific methods suggest that the "youngest" found Dinosaur was 65 million years old, now can anyone point me to a retirement home where they keep people that old, then maybe we can go and ask.

On the Subject of the former, as both are in fact theories (no offense meant in the post, as to the various religious systems) but it is quite plausible that maybe not strictly humans, but a form of sentient (as in thinking, reading, selfconscious creatures) bipedal mammal, co-existed with sauriae at a given point, as it IS known that the cretascious(sp?) era also saw the rise of the warmblooded mammals. but then again, youre guess is as good as mine, so fire away gentleman, as far as Im concerned the floor is still open for concrete suggestions

NON-EDIT: I still say its Baldricks Socks that caused their undoing

Science is an ongoing Process in which better observational methods give us a better understanding, ideally, of the universe around us. Can these results be misinterpreted? Most certainly. Can mistakes be made? Indubitably.But this does not invalidate the process itself.

there are many recorded cases of 'scientific diversions' leading to a re-evaluation of a current theory, and showing that there is a need for a better explanation of whatever phenomenon is under scrutiny.Schroedinger's thought experiment is a case in point, in that it led to the discipline of quantum mechanics.

The only permanent feature of the universe is change.

Edited by - Fred the Dead on 12/14/2005 11:29:40 AM

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I will also state that scientific method is flawed, it only produces theory speculation.

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I'll give you a thorough dressing down for such utter poppycock further on

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Anything dealing with forms of dating materials has been shown to be inacurate, there was a story some years ago that a few people were feeding recently manufactured gold coins; made to look like those found in ship wrecks, to geese. After the process, they were dated to be from the 14-16 hundreds.

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Most, if not all, of the radiological dating errors were owing to poor calibrations. Can I ask precisely why you are so sceptical of the process? It works through sheer logic.

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I mean if it is still called the theory of evolution when we have the Law of Gravity, well I don't know... I don't wanna be startin' somthing.

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No, no, no, no, no... There are ONLY theories in science, there are no laws. The creationists (I refuse to gratify so-called "Intelligent Design" 'theorists' by referring to them as such) like to foster among the general (and sadly ignorant) public that a theory in science is nothing more than a guess. A theory is a model of the world (or some portion of it) from which falsifiable hypotheses can be generated and verified through empirical observation. That is why there is a Theory of Gravity. That is why there is a Theory of Evolution. QED.

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NON-EDIT: I still say its Baldricks Socks that caused their undoing

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Get your facts right, fool, it was blatantly his underpants

How did the dinosaurs die?
Since the beginning of the scientific discovery and studying of fossils of animals that were obviously extinct, people have wondered, why and how did these animals die? We wonder, if these great animals were wiped out by some horrible catastrophe, couldn’t it just as easily happen to us? The study and hypotheses that lie behind discovering how exactly the dinosaurs went extinct is a new one, and until recently we simply knew they went extinct during the Mesozoic era and not the Cenozoic, since their fossils were not found in the rock layers of the Cenozoic. We knew that dinosaurs went extinct between 64-66 million years ago, but that was all. Many different ideas about how the dinosaurs became extinct have been presented over the years.

One side of the controversy states that the ultimate cause of the K-T extinction was extrinsic, meaning of an extraterrestrial nature, and catastrophic, meaning fairly sudden. Until 1980 there were few satisfactory answers as to how the dinosaurs became extinct. In 1980, a group of scientists at the University of California at Berkeley -- Luis and Walter Alvarez, Frank Asaro, and Helen Michel -- proposed the idea of the "K-T extinction" (meaning the extinction of dinosaurs at the boundary between the Cretaceous period (K) and the Tertiary period (T)), and “Alvarez proposed that an asteroid estimated at over 100km in width struck the earth off the coast of the modern day Yucatan peninsula. The impact sent up a plume of dust and debris large enough to block out the sun for years resulting in cold dark conditions that ultimately drove the dinosaurs to extinction.” (Alvarez 1980) However, there is no conclusive answer as to whether the extinction occurred at the K-T boundary. Most of the data from the supposed “K-T” extinction comes from North America, which is one of the few areas known that has a somewhat continuous fossil record. We don't know much about what was occurring in the rest of the world at the time of the K-T event, and therefore do not have a wide basis of comparison. Perhaps this was an isolated event in time on our continent. New dinosaur species ceased to originate around the K-T boundary; the question is, were they killed off (by a major environmental catastrophe, for instance), or were they not evolving and simply fading away (perhaps implying gradual environmental change)? If a species are dying off and no new animals originate, according to the process of evolution, the group will go extinct over time no matter what happens. Determining the age of fossils that are millions of years old is not easy. Carbon dating is only a reasonable and reliable method when used with organic material that is less than 50,000 years old, so it is useless with the 65 million year old K-T material. So, we don't know exactly when the dinosaurs went extinct or even if the K-T material is in fact as old as we think it to be.

Alvarez' hypothesis has been altered to include everything from massive wildfires to global volcanic activity but most scientists now agree that some sort of wintry darkness was the cause for the ultimate demise of the dinosaurs. An unusually high level of iridium (an element found only in space debris and volcano emission) appears at this time in the geologic record and is typically the biggest piece of evidence used in support of this theory. Also found the crater at Chicxulub, on the Yucatan Peninsula of Mexico were shocked quartz in the rocks of the K-T boundary (indicating a violent tremor that cracked the quartz grains), glassy spheres that looked like impact ejecta (molten rock that solidified when cooled), and a soot layer was found in many areas (evidence for widespread forest fires).

An alternative to this K-T theory of a meteor like rock hitting the earth and causing a global winter is called the gradualistic approach. Few scientists will argue that the remnants of an ancient crater, hundreds of kilometers wide, exists below the surface of the Gulf of Mexico. Despite the evidence of this crater, many scientists feel it was by no means the largest of the time and was not enough to wipe out the dinosaurs. Gradualists believe the dinosaurs became extinct because of overcompetition (basically, they killed themselves off- survival of the fittest) and because of gradual changes in the climate caused by plate tectonics and the seperation of the supercontinent Pangea. At the end of the Cretaceous period, it is believed that there was increased volcanic activity. Over a period of several million years, this increased volcanism could have created enough dust and soot to block out sunlight; producing the climatic change. In India during the Late Cretaceous, huge volcanic eruptions were spewing forth floods of lava, which can be seen today at the K-T boundary (these ruptures in the Earth's surface are called the Deccan traps). As for the iridium layer, (which is abundant in the Earth’s mantle), found that K-T supporters believe was from a comet or other space rock, the shocked quartz, soot and impact ejecta, they believe all these things were generated by volcanoes.

While iridium is present in the earth's mantle, it is one of the rarest of the platinum grouping on the surface. Other evidence- not just from the N.American continent, but from such places as Italy, Denmark, and New Zealand- shows that whatever happened, it was fairly widespread.Those samples contained anywhere from 20 to 160 times the amount of iridium than rocks deposited at other times in history. Some geologists feel that there may have been multiple impacts- whether caused by a barrage of such objects, or the fragmentation of a much larger one- and C.J.H. Hartnady of the University of Capetown suggests that one large object may have struck a glancing impact south of the equator in the area where India was at the time.
In all fairness, Charles Officer and Charles Drake of Dartmouth University have stipulated that the area known as the Deccan Traps could be the site of a super massive volcanic eruption, and occured during the same time frame of around 66 million years ago.

perhaps they just got bored and moved

www.kokrull.com home of ** uk server **

70 million years ago the gigantic beasts called Dinosaurs ruled the earth. They were dominant on both land and sea. As you can see today though, these animals are not living. How did these great beasts die? There are many theories that have been developed over the years, but two major ones are hotly debated by scientist.


The first theory was developed by UC Berkeley scientists Luis Alvarez, Walter Alvarez, Frank Asaro, and Helen Michel. They proposed that an abundance of the element iridium in the layer of the earth between the end of the Cretaceous and the beginning of the Tertiary periods (the time period where Dinosaurs went extinct) means that an extraterrestrial object collided with the earth, causing the Dinosaurs to die. The element of iridium is very scarce in the earth’s crust but very abundant in objects such as asteroids or meteors. Alvarez and his team found these traces of iridium in many different locations around the globe, which indicates that is was a large impact that affected almost everything that was living at that time.




Alvarez and his colleagues say that an impact such as this one would have sent up a cloud of dust all over the world that would block the earth off from the sun. This lack of sunlight would cause the plants, which need sunlight for photosynthesis, to die off. When the plants died off the large plant eating dinosaurs, such as Apatosaurus, would than die due to lack of food, and this in turn would cause the large meat eating dinosaurs, such as Tyrannosaurus Rex, to die. The lack of food would not be the only problem caused by this collision.




There would also be the problem of change in temperature. The cloud of dust caused by the object would block out the suns rays but would still allow the infrared radiation (heat) to pass out of the earth’s atmosphere causing a gradual decline in temperature. The Dinosaurs because of their large sizes would not be able to hide from the cold as well as small animals, which could hibernate or fit into small spaces where heat could be contained more easily.


This theory devised by Alvarez and his people would mean that all Dinosaurs and all of the other organisms that went extinct between the K-T Boundary (Cretaceous-Tertiary Boundary) would have died in relatively short time. This is not accepted by all scientists. Some believe that the Dinosaurs could not have died in that short of amount of time and that their numbers were already waning when the extraterrestrial object hit, if it hit at all.


These scientists believe that extinction was a gradual process among the Dinosaurs. They believe that the extinction started with the drying up of the great shallow seas that covered large parts of the existing continents. This drying up of the seas, which would have happened over thousands if not millions of years, would have caused a climate change. Another thing that would have changed the climate was tectonic activity during the Cretaceous period. The tectonic plates were shifting and mountain building occurred over thousands of years.

These mountains changed the pattern of winds and climate was affected once again. These scientists believe that these climate changes would have affected the dinosaurs. This new climate would allow other animals to emerge dominant while the old rulers, the Dinosaurs, would die out because they could not adapt. (Carroll 1988)




Another older theory that goes along with the gradual extinction of the Dinosaurs was introduced in by Henry Fairfield Osborn in 1925. He suggested that with the drying up of these shallow continental seas near the end of the Cretaceous would allow Dinosaurs on different continents to start interacting with each other. He then stated that this new exchange of Dinosaurs could have caused a spread of different diseases to new victims. He believed that this started the great extinction of the dinosaurs. (Bakker 1986)




These theories are both hypothetical. Since no one was there to see what happened to the Dinosaurs no one can really tell. They may have become extinct because of a catastrophe, a gradual decline, or maybe a mixture of both. All we can do is keep searching and maybe one day the answer to the great question of what killed to Dinosaurs will finally be answered.

Just as a side note to radio carbon dating ....

Biblical archeologists rely on it all the time to authenticate finds in the Holy Land.
And by biblical archeologists, I mean those who look for sites that correspond to what has been written in the bible in the hope that what is said can be demonstrated by finding properly aged and configured artifacts.

Carbon dating is used by them to prove their points on whether they have found genuine artifacts that relate to Jericho or to relocate Nazareth in the time of Jesus to another place, etc.

Proof of the falsity of the James ossuary involved radio carbon dating.

fleish guitar, you know you can add a link to those articles? That way we can tell when you actually want to say something yourself and when it's just an article you want us to read.

yes but be fair, Edward; there've also been a lot of archaeolgical finds in the Middle-East that bear out the Scriptures. I was fascinated by the discovery a few years back of Lot's Cave, for example, which I'd always thought was just an OT morality myth and not meant to be thought of as real in anyway, but there it is. then there's Sodom & Gomorrah, various Jerichos, the recent excavations round the Temple Mount, Megiddo, and my personal favourite chestnut, the Ark of the Covenant (nicely hidden away in Axum)

problem is of course that if you go off to the Middle-East expecting to find proof of faith, be it Christian, Jewish, Islamic or whatever, then you'll find it, or at least find enough to persuade yourself and others of the faithful. This conversely has also meant that serious archaeology gets put off and disdains to go looking for such things, just as in the late 19th and early 20th centuries Egyptology was reduced to the level of crankdom because of the sheer number of amaters and dilettantes and nutcases and vile people like Aleister Crowley. Yet when serious science is applied to religious archaeolgy it can turn up some amazing finds, providing no-one assumes that theyre going to find what they came to find before theyve even started.

its hardly as if it's a new phenomenon; Empress Helena, mother of Constantine the Great, went scrabbling around the Middle-East looking for relics and naturally she found exactly what she'd set out to find. delightful woman, tested out if the cross she'd found in the rubbish tip was the True Cross by killing Jewish scholars on it - if yo choose to believe Jacopo da Varagine's version of events!

Edited by - Tawakalna on 12/18/2005 3:07:59 AM