Quixotal:
Not doubting your word.
Just trying to find out what's going on.
I'll double check, and see if that wreck is the problem.
I may need to reupload the mod.

Watch your 6!

Hey Warzog... I'll offer you a trade... if you'll get my custom cockpit working (I posted about this in the main editing forums, and the 3D files/Mat are all done), I'll rework the SUR file for that station that's giving ya trouble, so it'll work right Wanna deal? I suspect that my problem is easier than yours

... but on to the main business, which is more or less a short review.

I've been playing your mod for about 45 minutes. I haven't left the original planet, gone to any of the kewl and unusual sights, or even bought a new ship yet. I've just been taking missions and blowing things away. So bear in mind... this is mainly a review of gameplay, and while it's not all positive, it's not meant as a slam on the obvious polish and style of this mod.

Things I Like:

1. This has to be the most beautiful mod I have ever seen, visually-speaking. It meets or exceeds the visual standards of the original game. I have yet to see an object (in space, on the ground is another matter) that doesn't look dark, mysterious and wonderful. If all of the systems are this pretty, and the objects in them are lit with such careful attention to the placement of lights, ambient light and features, then I may go touring the systems just to see the sights. Well done.

2. The inclusion of new characters and Rumors is very cool, and must've been a ton of work. The way that you start off in a distinctly neutral balance with the available Factions is also a nice touch.

So, overall... I'm impressed. Please bear that in mind... much like my review of Slivik's Tie Universe mod, the following is:

A. Just my opinion.
B. Not meant to annoy you personally in any way.
C. Like seeing a dark stain on an otherwise perfectly white tablecloth- it won't kill you, but it bugs you.

Things I Don't Like:

1. Combat, Combat, Combat... there are a lot of problems here, in terms of game-balance and design approach, in my opinion. Before I go further, I should reveal my biases- I like games that reward skill, involve swift kills, and are fast-paced. For example, I am a huge fan of Counter-Strike, where a single headshot means your opponant dies... NOW

A. The ROF (rates of fire) of the weapons in this mod are far lower than I remember the weapons in the original Privateer being, and I don't like the effect this has had on the gameplay. This more-or-less cripples the AI, which is inaccurate even at the "ace" settings. I'd double the ROF, and leave energy consumption and damage alone. This would make the AI much more dangerous (at all levels of the game), but would also reward players.

B. The secondary penalty of not having a high enough ROF in a game like this is that the thrusters become less and less of a tactical tool. I found that if I kept to slower-than-top speed and just followed bad guys around, they'd die, eventually. There wasn't any need to use the thrusters... the AI wasn't hitting me enough to kill me, unless I sat still, so I just used strafe occasionally. Mainly, though, I got very bored following enemies around, waiting for my shots to occasionally hit and finally destroy my enemies.

C. The rewards of combat are waaaaaaaay too high! On my very first mission, I got a Shield Mark 3 and Power Upgrade Mark 4... that's a lot of free credits for players for one mission. Considering that the enemies weren't any kind of real threat, I took 3 more missions and had enough money to buy all but the most expensive fighter offered.

D. I saw no point in upgrading from the Tarsus to something heavier and slower, when it was more than satisfactory. Nor did the thruster upgrades matter much.

E. Weapon balance doesn't much resemble the original game. In the original Privateer, lasers were just about the best weapon, despite their low damage. This was because of their range and ROF, which was quite high. Since you're not using fixed-forward weapons for the ships, you can't duplicate the effect of having 6 lasers firing in a nasty grid every quarter-second. So you should probably make them have a higher ROF (after raising the ROF of everything else), but cut their damage a wee bit. I think they should have a refire rate of between 0.3 and 0.4, myself.

2. Movement with the ship revealed some problems. This is only with the Tarsus, but I assume that since it's the starting ship you put a fair amount of time into scripting it "just so". I think it still needs a little fine-tuning:

A. I can see why people are probably having trouble landing on bases- among other things, the nudge_force is waaaay too high. Nudge_force / linear_drag (engine + ship) = top speed of nudge. It shouldn't ever be above 40 M/s. Really. Strafe can be quite high if you want, but Nudge needs to stay low, or the docking AI won't deal.

B. In the original game, ships didn't stop on a dime, or turn on one. Go download my mod, where you can see some (admittedly-extreme) physics models, where ships can't just stop whenever they want, and don't instantly-decelerate after events like Cruise or using Thrusters. Maybe I'm just an old stick-in-the-mud, but I strongly prefer a game with a "loose" steering model to one where all of the ships fly like they're glued to an invisble ceiling.

C. In the original game, running into things HURT. Two collisions with an enemy fighter, and you were DEAD. This is super-easy to fix... please, make running your umpteen-ton fighters into objects at 200+ KPS... a little more dangerous.

3. Gameplay grumbles of a general nature:

A. In the original game, there weren't any nanobots. Or shield batteries. As ineffective as the bad guys are... I haven't had to use either one yet, but that's beside the point. When your shield is down, you should be WORRIED

B. Again, in the original game... when an enemy's shields went down, you had about 5 seconds to react and kill them. Shield didn't pop up this quickly, and the ship's armor was more important.


Last words: when I'm referring to "the original game", I'm talking about Privateer... not Privateer II, which was a horrible piece of bad game design, and sold very poorly with good reason. Privateer = classic... and unfortunately there aren't any ways to re-do some of the best parts of the game with the current FL engine. But what you've got here is a very nice start. Just tighten up the gameplay... make things a lot rougher and meaner (i.e., more like the original), and this could be a really classic mod

Edited by - Argh on 11/10/2004 7:40:03 PM

Ok, I'm about done with playtesting this mod. I need to do a few things to mine, to get it closer to Alpha 3

Here are my final conclusions:

1. I was wrong about the lasers- they ARE the best weapons in the game. That's because of the shields' insane restart rate. With that rate... the weapon that knocks shields down from a low level fastest, wins. That'd be the humble Laser Cannon, with it's ROF of "sad" and damage of "terrible". The other weapons aren't even worth buying, though, because once you get somebody's shields down, you can keep knocking them down with the lasers, over and over and OVER again... did I mention that the ROF was too low? It's so dreadfully dull to watch Orions and other supposedly-awesome ships, which are armed with much "heavier" weapons, be totally unable to handle me, 6 on 1, in a Ferret...

2. The Super Ferret is so small and fast, it might as well have a license-plate that says, "abuse me in multiplayer". For goodness sakes, man... its cockpit is smaller around than one of Juni's thighs. Go get FLModel tool and size it and its SUR up by at least 1.5, so that it's not so obviously wrong... it looks like a gnat beside anything else in the game. FLModel tool is not hard to use, trust me...

3. Every solar system I've been too seems to have the same background. And lacks asteroids anywhere they might be reasonably dangerous.

4. The cruise speed means that all combat is basically by invitation only- I'm never ever EVER going to get attacked by the AI unless I feel like it, because of FL's scanner issues, and the fact that I have yet to see a cruise disrupter that can handle anyone moving that fast. Either develop a really super-duper cruise disruptor... or put a lot of asteroid fields into the system + impact damage increases, so that players occasionally have to fight. It's not much of a challenge when I can go whereever I want without anybody being able to do anything about it.

Overall, I was disappointed once I got out of the first system- I thought they'd all be unique and beautiful, but they all look very similar. Yes, there are different planets, and the suns are different, but using the same solar background over and over again really detracts from the experience, and you need more color variation- everything was browns, oranges and reds. But the gameplay was definately my biggest beef... I really think that lowering the shields' rate of return after going down, upping the ROF of the weapons across the board, and removing nanobots and shield batteries would vastly improve the gameplay. The original Freelancer made you quite nervous when your shields went down... I like that you're experimenting with this gameplay concept of fast-regenerating shields, but the way that the whole combination is put together right now ... just doesn't work for me.

Good job ^_^ though my only critisism's have already been mentioned here, so I won't bug you by repeating them. I would like to make a suggestion though, maybe for the next release. I've noticed that all the missions, in both Freelancer and mods I've tried out (a LOT!), are all to do with combat. Thats fine, but it'd be good to have some trade missions... say, pick up some supplies at one base/planet, and deliver them elsewhere. Some players. including me, kinda prefer trading and exploration to combat (though if I get attacked I'll kick their collective butts!). But good mod nonetheless, love it =D

Argh:
1) Try downloading/running my "Deathwish AI" mod along with this one.
--It'll pick up the pace a bit.
2) The ROF is based on weapon's stats, which I believe I downloaded at WC CIC.
3) The high payout on combat was requested months ago by most players.
4) I cranked up the "nudge force" upon requests that I do so.
--It also brings the ships into a better class/weight relationship.
--I lowered the collision damage upon request, but it's simple enough to increase it, again.
5) I can remove the nanobots and shieldbatts, with little effort.
--Modding the shields would also be a simple, but more time-consuming, matter.
6) The Super Ferret came to us as is. I've been trying to get it resized for ages!
--I'll see if I can find that FLmodel Tool, and use it.
7) The cruise speed was upped because people detested the long periods required to traverse a system.
--BTW-except for a few Militia, there ARE NO cruise disrupters around in Gemini.
--To many people complained about them.
Combat, in this mod, was designed to be an annoyance for those who wanted to trade, mine, or do salvage work, but available to those who love combat.
--Unlike in Freelancer, it wasn't meant to be the stop-all reason for playing the mod.
9) Take a look at the in-game map of the Gemini Sector.
--Formerly the Sirius Sector map.
--Please take note of what color the Nebulae/Stars are.
--Then check to see where the system you're in is on the map, and what color it is on the map.
--Then see what color the star in your system is.
--Then look at the background in your system.
--Does it match the surroundings for your system in the map?
--THAT, at least, was my goal.
10) The asteroid infested systems EXACTLY matches the ones in Privateer.
--In a few systems, where it seemed appropriate, I placed debris fields.
--If you've followed this thread, you'll find detractors of debris fields, too.
11) Many people prefer the unrealistic, "stop on a dime," physics.
--There was also a desire for some high-speed fighters like the Ferret

Aargh & Skyheart:
As the old saying goes...
You can satisfy some of the people all of the time.
You can satisfy all of the people some of the time.
But you can't satisfy all of the people all of the time.

Having said that...
I'd like to say thank you for your comments
AND!!!
I'll try implementing as many of them as I can.

After all...
The goal is to make the best possible mod that we can.


Watch your 6!

Edited by - warzog on 11/11/2004 6:08:18 AM

@Warzog:

1. I definately hear you on the "can't please 'em all". My opinion's based on my biases, of course, and does not remotely reflect everybody

2. I've tried it with deathwish, actually... it wasn't much better. I did finally have to use thrusters to dodge, occasionally, but I still was taking negligible damage in most fights. In short, I didn't feel challenged. But that's just me- and I know that it's easier to make things too hard than to make them too easy.

3. Wow, the ROF reflects the original game? I guess I've forgotten how slow its pace was. I still think it should be raised by 1.5 or so, because of the nature of shooting in the game. BTW, in my mod I've implemented true fixed-forward weapons, which'd be a lot more like the original game. It's a very easy thing to set up- the tricky part is fixing the AI. If you want to talk about the specifics, I'll be happy to share info.

4. Remember, nudge_force isn't strafe_force... nudge is used by the docking AI only, and isn't used by players. Raising it too high will produce docking problems.

5. Well, unless I've missed something, you only have 10 shields, and you're using the same variable for the offline_rebuild_time. I also think that shields should draw more power while rebuilding- I have yet to run out of power, period.

6. I'll take care of the Super Ferret- PM me a valid email address to send it to. It'll take me about 2 minutes. In fact, I'm already done.

7. My offer of a trade of services is still valid- I really need that custom cockpit working. This is a UTF problem, not a geometry problem- iow, it's a "programmer problem". Which I am rather lousy at dealing with, once I get past basic scripting.

8. The cruise speed problem could be handled in several different ways that would be better for gameplay, imho:

A. You could make your systems a lot smaller. Lower the size of the suns' coronas, move the planets inwards, and then lower the cruise to a lower speed than a top-speed ship with thrusters- say, about 400. People would take the same amount of time to get places, but the AI would have a chance to engage in combat once in awhile. I understand that people are into trade and exploration- I'm planning to do some things about that in my mod that will really change the way that people play FL games in those regards. Which may sound half-baked, but I've kept my other promises thus far

B. You could nerf cruise severely, like I did in my mod (which if you haven't played... you should). This has two good effects: for one thing, the AI will keep pursuing you, instead of giving up. And if they're faster than you, they'll catch you! Secondly, it makes relative speeds much more important in the game for PvP combat... people with VHFs aren't nearly as invulnerable if they can't get away from pesky but skillful LF pilots.

9. First off, my disappointment with the visuals reflects the huge amount of time it takes to properly edit and tweak the look of a single system, and really isn't meant as a personal attack. I've been tweaking the looks of the single system used in my mod for awhile now, and I'm still not perfectly satisfied, so I know that it's not easy to accomplish. But you could build some custom backgrounds (it's very easy, if you have any access to Paint Shop Pro or Photoshop and some Googled jpgs of stars), which would make your game look much more varied and interesting.

10. I should take this moment to also note that most of the new sounds are very nicely done, and definately create the feel of a new game. There's one sound, though, that's used by the interface a lot... it goes, "beep, clikclikclikclik"... it's a bit much after hearing it more than a dozen times. Sounds that get used a lot in a game should be short and sweet, imho, and not distracting.

11. I haven't run into an asteroid-filled system yet, but I'll take your word for it.

12. The people who dissed asteroid fields and increased damage from running into things are wussies. Give people a challenge, not a handout. Making "trade and exploration more important than combat" doesn't mean that you should roll over and give people money for free- there should be hazards to overcome. Otherwise, it ain't much of a game, y'know? You could just call it "wasting time in Boring World"... note: I'm not implying that the game is that bad... just making fun of the whiners.

13. If people prefer unrealistic physics, well, I'm a minority then I guess.

14. Lastly, on combat... I've said my piece about those issues. Just give it some thought- I know that combat's not the heart and soul of this game, and that's just fine But what combat does occur... can and should work better.

Argh:
1) We tried the "fixed-forward" weapons along time ago.
--Nobody liked them.
--The AI could slaughter you with them.
--That was why the refresh rate on the shields went up, and players loved it.
2) The nudge_force affects colllisions, too.
--If a Galaxy and a Ferret colide, the Ferret should bounce off.
--If a Galaxy and a Ferret hit asteroids, the Ferret should be deflected more than the Galaxy.
3) Except for the "rebuild time," which should be 4 seconds, the shields' stats are from Privateer's stats.
--As do Weapon's, Power Generators, Missles, Mines, and other ships stats.
4) As the "Voice of the MOD," my "mail" button is always accurate.
--send the Ferret.
5) UTF is not my cup of tea.
--Every attempt to get the voice feature of this mod working has resulted in fiasco, and CTD's.
==I understand the basics, but that's about it.
6) ALL of the systems are only 64000 units wide.
--Smaller than 96% of the systems in FL.
7) ALL of the sounds added are directly from Privateer.
--And placed EXACTLY where they were in Privateer.
--Sorry that some are annoying.
Nerfing cruise would be great for the combat lovers, but would turn off everyone else.
9) Pender's Star is the Asteroid-filled System that comes to mind.
--In Privateer, you often died because of the Pirates, or Asteroids, in Pender's Star.
--It was, to me, the most annoying system to get through in Privateer.
--I tried to duplicate the feeling in my version of it.

Most, if not all, of your suggestions are valid.
And as I said before, I'll implement as many as I can.
One of the easier things I might try, is to add more "combat" zones.
Many of the zones in the mod are traffic zones, with combat being a random addition to them.
This results in fewer random encounters than could be achieved.

One of the goals set early on...
That was eluded to in this, and my previous response...
Was that the mod have something for everyone.
That is...
Combat...
Trading...
Salvage...
Mining.
I believe I've got the mining section completed.
As is the Salvage section.
The trading section is getting there.
And with your suggestions, I'll get the combat there.

And...
As to your suggestions...
I believe that the Shield refresh rate, and removing the shieldbatts and nanobots would be the most effective.
(Although, it might be a good idea to have some nanobots around.)


Watch your 6!

Debug Update: Varnus - planet Rodin landed ok; went to bar ok....attempted to go to Commodity Trader and got CTD @ 2 attempts in a row

Have noticed something that may have been left out....Never have cargo hold scanned by militia or navy like it does in Freelancer.

Is it possible to allow a cargo hold upgrade like you used to be able to get in the original Privateer? How about the secret smuggling hold that was unscanable?

Can we smuggle things? Or are they not checking anymore?

Quixotal

I got a CTD in the bar on Gracchus (Refinery/Planet?) in the Raxis system (which looks very weird with the Unknown system background). I had just left Trinsic with Food rations in my tarsus and had sold it at Gracchus (for no profit at all to my suprise) then went to the bar and that's whe it crashed.

I know you're still working on the commoditities, so don't worry about that, I just wanted to report the CTD and tell you that this is a really good mod. It's great to be able to explore the Privateer universe again (like back when I was 7) Good work Warzog!

Most advanced Confed Ships & Kilrahi should need higher rep in that faction to buy them. Would make the game a bit longer and make you earn that VHF. Roman Lynches goons fly some kind of LCV and man that ship has punch, the thing is that is how I allways imanaged Orion. My sugestion is, make Orion similar to that ship.

Quixotal:
Finally got the time to check it out, and I duplicated the Perry bar CTD.

I'll check out Varnus.

Your cargo is scanned, but it's very random.

The Cargo upgrade isn't possible in FL.

Du7andal:
I'll check it out.

GreyViper:
People complained about the rep/rank being tied to ships.
(It wasn't in Privateer.)
(Which is why it's out of the mod.)

Believe it, or not, the CSV has the same weapons as a standard Orion.
(Except that the Orion has an extra pair of weapons!)

Edit:
I just had a thought:
Perhaps it's the pilot?
Maybe I'll use the CSV pilot elsewhere?
Hmmm...

Watch your 6!

Edited by - warzog on 11/12/2004 11:19:12 AM

Update:
Just sent Argh some files that may upgrade combat without compromising the general gameplay of the mod.
He's suggested a few other ideas that may be implemented, depending on time and effectiveness.

Watch your 6!

Update:
I think I found the answer to the various base CTDs.
If I'm right, it'll add 1-12mb to the next version of the mod.
(Not to mention taking me a few days to implement, and test.)


Watch your 6!

Update:
Had a few detours along the way...
1) Resized the Ferret.
2) Added a turret to the Gothri.
3) Repaired/Replaced the SUR files on our base models.
--Should stop the winking out.
4) Decreased the amount of high-end salvage.
5) In the middle of reworking the flight characteristics of the ships to come in line with the Wing Commander/Privateer style.
6) Cranked up the AI another notch, or two.
7) Increased collision damage.
Stopped the weapons from flying all over the place.
--Locked straight ahead, now.
--Except for turrets.
9) Resized the Tarsus.
--The Epee was the same size!
10) Still working on the CTD fix.
--Once THAT's done, I'll test everything.

Is anybody out there besides the admins?

Watch your 6!