Bounty Hunter Jackson, that's some knowledge you're boasting lol!

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Freelancer Neural Net, the only resource you'll ever need!

First, how many VHF pilots really go into turret mode in the middle of a fight? Most people would try to get themselves turned around to bring the main guns to bear rather than plinking around with a single turret in back and losing their maneuverability which, even for the biggest and clunkiest fighters, is still a major asset.

Second, even with the turret, there are still major blind spots to deal with. An Eagle cannot target anything behind and above it. A Sabre cannot target anything behind and below it. A Titan has a rather wide cone around its turret's firing arc which it cannot direct any kind of firepower into. In other words, no fighter in the game has 100% coverage.

A Freighter has no such blind spots. While it cannot direct all of its guns in one direction at once, and the forward arc is still where most of the firepower is, a Freighter can direct a good number of guns in any and every direction. When you make sure that at least one shield buster turret/gun and one armor killing turret/gun can face in any given direction, you can do a significant amount of damage to a small, fast opponent because you can keep hitting them no matter where they go. They hit you and go past, you keep hitting them as they set up for another run- fighters are chicken run ships with all their main guns up front, so it is unavoidable that there will be a period in which the fighter cannot shoot back, which is always right after it has passed its target. This is especially true of LFs, since very few of them have turrets. With less armor than any other ship, if you can keep shooting them no matter where they run or dodge, you can kill an LF- Freighters, with 100% coverage, are ideal for doing just that.

Freighters are utterly useless against any well outfitted VHF, just to get that out of the way. They are also pretty much incapable of competing with any well equipped HF which is their own class or higher. Turret mode is also suicidal in large battles, where it is better to move around. But against an LF which only has 4 guns/missiles and a mine launcher to do damage with, a Freighter is actually pretty damn good.


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Proud owner and operator of a Patriot!
Proud owner and operator of a Stiletto!
Proud ally of the Bounty Hunters' Guild!
Proud hater of Nomad weapons!
Proud user of all things underestimated!
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For the last time...there is no "N" in "TURRET"!

I sometimes switch to rear view in the Hammerhead if I'm being chased in a light fighter that I probably couldn't out-manoeuvre if I wanted to. A buckshot turret on your rear will deal with most light fighters, or at least force them to take evasive action and give you a chance to come about and use your forward weapons on them. And the Hammerhead is quite manoeuvrable so far as very heavy fighters go -- I imagine someone in a Titan would be far more likely to use their turret far more frequently. More importantly, from reading this I get the impression that most people don't expect their opponent to use their rear turret too often. And doing something your enemy won't expect is more preferable than futily trying to beat a LF at its own game -- agility.

_____________________________
"If it aint on fire, you haven't shot it up bad enough yet" - my old teacher on Planet Housten.

The Bounty Hunter Intelligence and Tactical Computer System

I go into turret view if I'm escaping someone with cruise disruptors (I can dodge them by strafing), or if my ship is on autopilot, ie. for docking.

That's the problem!

People in VHFs don't want to be wasting their 6 super guns by switching to turret mode and firing their lone turret at that annoying LF.

Go on. See how long that Drake lasts with a Skyblast B tearing into it!

Edited by - cupidstunt on 3/18/2004 3:08:57 AM

Just to use my preferred LF setups as an example:

A drake can mount some serious shield-busting power for an LF. Add to that a mine launcher of a very high level, and you have one lethal little bastard of a bomber. You can do the same thing with the lower level LF's, with a little less shield-buster. Alternately, you could put a missile on in addition to three shield busters and a mine- for a Drake, that can mean up to and including the Catapult, which can lop off 1/10 to about 3/10 of a class 10 VHF's armor per hit.

A VHF on a straight course(as in turret or rear view mode) is a perfect target for mine tactics- it has a huge exploitable blind spot, and cannot easily evade mines. The shields are soon down after a barrage of shield buster and mine fire, then no more than 2 or 3 mines to finish off the VHF. If you enter turret mode or aft view in a VHF, this is what can happen to you- the LF can remain in your blind spot, where you cannot fire any weapons at it- which is made into child's play by you travelling on a straight course. All that firepower and armor is wasted because you gave up your maneuverability, which is essentially all that can keep an LF out of your blind spots in the first place.

Now take the same loadout up against a freighter. The shield busters rapidly deplete the shields, and the LF comes in for a mine run. Now wait a second here- the Freighter is travelling on a straight course, yes, and it has less armor- but keep in mind that the freighter, having 100% coverage, can not only shoot the LF, but the mines as well . There is also no LF in the game that can mount more firepower than a Dromedary or Humpback, making it highly unlikely that the Freighter will be outgunned. Since it can direct a constant stream of firepower at the LF, the LF is soon dead, with the only damage to the Freighter coming from whatever gun hits the LF has scored.

See the difference there? Granted, that only covers explosive ammo weapons, but the same applies to guns(even moreso, really, since then the Freighter pilot doesn't need to worry about shooting down projectiles).

Anyway...
LF>VHF>Freighter>LF.

Most games have this kind of three-way balance; Large beats mid-sized, mid-sized beats small, small beats large. There are, of course, exceptions that come from pilot skill, but that's the basic idea.

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Proud owner and operator of a Patriot!
Proud owner and operator of a Stiletto!
Proud ally of the Bounty Hunters' Guild!
Proud hater of Nomad weapons!
Proud user of all things underestimated!
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For the last time...there is no "N" in "TURRET"!

I fell in love with the Valkyrie.My path in the SP campaign and beyond (without modding) was:

Starflier>Rhino>Clydesdale>Cavalier (by mistake)>Hawk>Anubis>Humpback>Valkyrie

so....How's my life story?

Cheat hunters will go to heaven
Good cheaters and modders will be reborn as rich men
Bad cheaters and hackers will go back to the hell whence they came from!

Can I just point out, for the sake of NukeIt's apparent 'war' against VHFs, that I have never once been threatened by a light fighter -- with the exception of one particularly skilled Banshee pilot -- while in my Hammerhead, whether it be a skilled human adversary or not.

A Drake cannot take a more powerful pulse weapon than a Borroco -- and I've yet to encounter one packing such heat anyway. It cannot be done unless you're using a mod -- which I don't, so I shan't argue with you if that's the case.
And a Borroco only does 308 shield damage. Unless you loadout all four weapons ports with Borrocos (loosing your ability to do any hull damage), it's going to take quite a few shots to take down class-9 shields. And given the large energy drain of the Borroco, combined with the lack of energy a level-6 fighter has, your energy banks will be drained. And you'll only have two weapons remotely good at damaging a hull. Anything less powerful against shields than two Borrocos, and it's unlikely the class-9 shields will even be down before you run out of energy.
At full thrust, you can't overtake a VHF to drop a mine in the first place.
All this time, you understand, a Buckshot turret has been firing at you with minimal drain on the VHF energy banks -- and to keep up, you could only have maintained a minimally evasive course, and anyone remotely skilled would have hit you at least a few times.
And once thrust is nearly depleted, engines on the VHF will be cut, maintaining momentum, it will come about, still keeping ahead enough to be safe from mines, and fire its forward weapons. And any considerable damage to the shields would be repaired with batteries.
You either suffer the consequences in a vain attempt to start all over, or retreat, and loose sufficient ground either for the Hammerhead to engage cruise mode and escape, or more likely to get on your tail and finish the job it started -- and a Hammerhead, with sufficient engine control, can keep on your tail long enough to finish the job it started, believe me. All this would happen in less than a minute.
Your only possible chance of avoiding such a fate is to try and get ahead on cruise mode. Given the time it takes to charge cruise engines, any fighter you're chasing could just as easily have their own engines charged and accelerating before you could get ahead. And then cut their engines, open fire, same fate -- guess it can't be avoided. Either that, or while you're charging your cruise engines, they come to a halt and get behind you, CD up your rear followed by various weapons.
And thus, skilled human, idiot human or AI piloting the Drake, I always secure myself a kill and maybe one or two weapons to sell -- and prove that the various people on some sort of personal vendetta against VHFs are misguided, or haven't fought the right people.

_____________________________
"If it aint on fire, you haven't shot it up bad enough yet" - my old teacher on Planet Housten.

The Bounty Hunter Intelligence and Tactical Computer System

A vendetta against VHF's would require actually hating their existance. They have their place in the game. It's VHF's with Nomad Weapons that I hate.

You can't assume that the VHF will always start out ahead- it is just as possible that the LF could gain the upper hand early. Since it turns faster, it is inherently better at anything that requires manuevering- that includes engine kill tactics, which can be used in combination with bursts from the thruster, producing a very effective way of evading almost all enemy fire. In addition, you can remain unpredictable in this way- a quarter of a second to rotate a bit and you can be travelling in a completely different direction. Again, the LF can do this much faster, and thus more effectively. There aren't that many people that will leave engine kill on for the duration of a fight- most people think of it purely as a way to get their main weapons facing behind them, and they will return to normal flight as soon as they outdistance the target enough for a head on pass. Again, dependant on pilot skill- an experienced pilot will know better than to ignore one of his/her ship's assets. Remember, also, that although you may be able to engine kill and slide backwards, the other pilot may not be dumb enough to give chase- you might quickly find yourself out of range with nothing to shoot at. That goes for ANY ship type.

The mines were, also, just an example. Anyone can dodge an incoming mine- unless it is dropped right on top of them. It is not as hard as it seems to get in close to a ship in combat- after all, they will end up making at least a few chicken runs at you, and if you feel ballsy enough you can ram a few right into their front window, so long as you evade the weapons fire. Certain weapons are harder to dodge than others- anything with a high refire or a fast projectile speed can be very difficult to get away from in time to avoid a hit. I've been practicing with mines for a while, and they are viable weapons with a wide variety of often overlooked uses...that, and they're one of the few weapons that can be mounted on an LF that can take down a high-class ship in very few hits(with shields down). Mines, when dropped with the right timing, can be nearly impossible to evade, as they do not necessarily need to make contact with the enmy hull to detonate and do damage(actually, they seem to bounce first when they do hit your hull, possibly indicating a bit of a time delay fuse). If dropped in front of a ship, they have the added effect of acting as a blinding flare(on some lower end graphics cards, this can even cause FPS to drop, reducing reaction time as well!), which allows a few crucial fractions of a second to punch a thruster and escape.

A Borocco may only do 308 shield damage, but when you factor in the fire rate- 4.00, IIRC- it does 1232 shield damage per second. While this is nowhere near the impressive punch of a Tizona Del Cid, it is much more impressive when you consider that a Drake (the most agile ship in the game) can keep them on target very reliably, doing constant damage rather than a burst before locating the target again. Speaking from statistics, a less maneuverable VHF has a 1-hit-k/o potential and plenty of armor to protect it, but a more maneuverable LF might get more hits in while evading more of the enemy's shots.

Also, don't forget that your point of view will always be invariably skewed towards the ship you currently use- since that is the ship you are likely most familiar with. It may sound like a cheezy bit of philosophy, but it is much better to fly several ships from each type in order to understand where their strengths and weaknesses are. I've been steadily working my way through the list of ships in FL, and there are only a few which I've truly hated the performance of...those being the Bloodhound, Wolfhound, Startracker, Crusader, and Legionnaire(which, IMHO, presents way too big of a profile for an LF). The Hammerhead was one of my favorites when I was flying it- it has a very good combination of maneuverability and firepower for a ship of that type. It is not, however, without a weak spot- the Hammerhead is not as well defended in shields and armor as the heavier VHF's, nor does it always have enough energy to power all 6 main weapons at once.

The power issue is, interestingly enough, what makes me use mines most of the time on my LF rigs. Using all shield busting guns means all the energy goes to knocking down shields and keeping them that way, and shield busters do not always drain the ship's energy as fast as a damaging gun combo would. Since downing a shield of that power takes time with mid to low level shieldbusters, the more the better.

Firepower and armor doesn't equate to being unbeatable, nor does maneuverability...not even when those traits are all combined. FL's game balance is a LOT deeper than people make it out to be. If you think you can make something work, go ahead and try it. Even if you can't, just try it anyway to find out more about how OTHER people make it work.

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Proud owner and operator of a Patriot!
Proud owner and operator of a Stiletto!
Proud ally of the Bounty Hunters' Guild!
Proud hater of Nomad weapons!
Proud user of all things underestimated!
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For the last time...there is no "N" in "TURRET"!

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Remember, also, that although you may be able to engine kill and slide backwards, the other pilot may not be dumb enough to give chase- you might quickly find yourself out of range with nothing to shoot at. That goes for ANY ship type.

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In which case, you start your engines up again pointing in the right direction to be on their tail, instead of vice-versa

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A vendetta against VHF's would require actually hating their existance. They have their place in the game. It's VHF's with Nomad Weapons that I hate.

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Lol, at least, um, they present a challenge


I'm just disagreeing with your suggestion that there is any sort of order to them. The knock-out-shields-then-drop-some-mines tactic probably works against some people all of the time regardless what ship they're in, but then won't work against another pilot at all. Short of a Starflier, you can make pretty much any ship work against any other. I've used other ships; I was once an extensive user of the Valkyre, for example, and the Hawk was a personal favourite too. I just settled on the Hammerhead because... I liked it best. I thought it was ideal for my fighting technique.
Sure, each ship has its major weak point. Titans are lumbering, Drakes don't take much punishment, Starfliers are crap, Bloodhounds are too big and slow for their class. But that doesn't determine the outcome of a fight, i.e. a VHF isn't preordaned to lose to a LF. I've seen freighters overcome VHFs before now. And I've seen many a Starflier... um, die, lol. I've seen Sabres out-manoeuvre LFs. It all depends on who's flying the thing, more than anything else, IMO

_____________________________
"If it aint on fire, you haven't shot it up bad enough yet" - my old teacher on Planet Housten.

The Bounty Hunter Intelligence and Tactical Computer System

Starfliers simply lack firepower. They'd be fine if they had just one more gun, but beating a few NPC Nomads is just about the upper limit of their abilities (unless, of course, the opposing pilot has some kind of brain condition which prevents them from using a shield and shield batts). They are still approximately equal to a Patriot or Drake in maneuverability, but three class 2/3 mounts just doesn't cut it; you really do need that one more gun. Oddly enough, the Starflier performs much better than its bigger brother, the Startracker. I couldn't even get through the campaign in the Startracker, but the Starflier lasted a lot longer- mostly because of the maneuverability, which the Startracker does not share.

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I've seen freighters overcome VHFs before now.

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Frankly, if that happens, there's no hope for the VHF pilot. Freighters are the least maneuverable of the four ship types, and do not go above a class 7 rating- a class 9 or 10 VHF should be able to down one of those on the first pass with its guns. Here is an example of a bad VHF pilot against a good freighter pilot. Had the fighter jock had half a clue about what it was they were doing, they would have thought to use their ship's plentiful supply of repair gear to simly outlast the other ship, even if they could not out-shoot it.

That's another thing worth considering...why do so few people actually use their repair bots/shield batteries? From a full load, the shield batteries can provide about 3 and a half full shield recharges before running out(that goes for any ship because the number of bots/batts is related to the class of the ship), and the bots last even longer... Also, batteries can bring a shield up instantly, instead of having to wait for it to recover and re-activate. While it isn't such a big deal against an NPC, another player will notice your obvious lack of shields and come after you hardcore. On the other hand, I'm sure the sight of the shield popping instantaneously back up to full would royally piss quite a few people off.

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I've seen Sabres out-manoeuvre LFs

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Out-fly or out-shoot, yes...out-maneuver, no. That's a case of the LF pilot NOT maneuvering, rather than the Sabre out-maneuvering. There's a big difference between being more maneuverable and not using it, and being less maneuverable. A good VHF pilot against a bad LF pilot.




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Proud owner and operator of a Patriot!
Proud owner and operator of a Stiletto!
Proud ally of the Bounty Hunters' Guild!
Proud hater of Nomad weapons!
Proud user of all things underestimated!
----------------------------------------
For the last time...there is no "N" in "TURRET"!

Freighters are simply too weak. A VHF, with a decnt load out can take out a freighter in about 2 seconds. Also, the difference between a VHF and a freighter in nanobots is miniscule, certainly not enough to make up for the differnce between shields and armour.

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Out-fly or out-shoot, yes...out-maneuver, no. That's a case of the LF pilot NOT maneuvering, rather than the Sabre out-maneuvering. There's a big difference between being more maneuverable and not using it, and being less maneuverable. A good VHF pilot against a bad LF pilot.

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With sufficient engine control, skill and reaction times, any of the VHFs, bar perhaps the Titan, can be almost as effective as a LF in dodging and tailing.

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That's another thing worth considering...why do so few people actually use their repair bots/shield batteries?

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I know! Great, isn't it :p? The only times I don't use them should I need to is if I'm, y'know, really low on the things, or in a natural hazard that'll need me to ration them. Otherwise, if your shields go down it's common sense to do everything in your power to bring them back up again. I suppose that some people just... forget them have them in the heat of the moment.

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Starfliers simply lack firepower.

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Exactly. One of the few examples of ships being outclassed regardless of the pilot. Survival is one thing, but if you can't do any damage to the enemy, you're ultimately going to lose. Although, I suppose that a Lavablade or two could fit on the Starflier, at least giving it a shot.

_____________________________
"If it aint on fire, you haven't shot it up bad enough yet" - my old teacher on Planet Housten.

The Bounty Hunter Intelligence and Tactical Computer System

Lavablades are as bad, if not worse than the codename weapons in projectile speed, 500 last time I checked. That and their shield damage is pretty low- 40-50 something every shot, and that's only twice a second. Class 9/10 shields regenerate faster than three of those could do damage. At that level, you need shieldbusters to put a dent in heavier shielding. Three guns- two of which, I think, are limited to class 2- might not be capable of that. Not with a competent pilot on the other end of the fight, anyway. Now, if they're really good with mines, it's THEORETICALLY possible, but the guns would almost be more of a distraction to the pilot using them than they would be an asset. I could be wrong here, since I have never tried a Starflier PvP, but I can't see an experienced VHF pilot being beaten by a Starflier. It is, IMHO, just below the cutoff for what you can and can't get profitable results out of.

Here's some interesting food for thought:

Click here

A thread made by someone who beat, PvP, a Titan using a Dagger. I can't remember that well, but I think someone reported doing that in a Patriot at one point. So it IS possible(even in ships as low level as that), you just have to know exactly what you're doing to pull it off. I doubt I could; I can do Nomad patrols in a Patriot or Starflier, but with a sentient pilot flying against me, I think that I'd make a slip-up somewhere and get myself killed.

Heh, edit again, you already saw that one...

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Proud owner and operator of a Patriot!
Proud owner and operator of a Stiletto!
Proud ally of the Bounty Hunters' Guild!
Proud hater of Nomad weapons!
Proud user of all things underestimated!
----------------------------------------
For the last time...there is no "N" in "TURRET"!

Edited by - NukeIt on 3/21/2004 4:30:05 PM

Edited by - NukeIt on 3/21/2004 4:30:56 PM

Edited by - NukeIt on 3/21/2004 4:34:32 PM