hey ran,

very well said. i will try the engine cutting flying and see if it works for me. i may however just stick with what i know works for me. but i do see ur point, and i hope mine made it across somewhere along the line.....(if not, eh). im glad we can stop now instead of turning the thread into a muscle flexing contest. thx for ur conversation man!! good to talk with all of u.

kergen

assuming player skill is eqqual, yes, the eagle would best the sabre. That is a fact. But is that EVER going to happen? Are two pilots of EXACT same skill with an eagle and a sabre ever going to dogfigtht each other? no. never. Absolutley never. Why? Because no two pilots can ever be exactly the same. One pilot is always going to have be more skilled. I do agree that the eagle is more maneuverable. That is a FACT. But, to repeat; will two pilots of equal skill ever face each other? I'm sorry if I make you burst a vein, but the answer is NO. "Assume" all you want, then return to reality.


-From the gates of Heaven to the depths of Hell; one, the Protecter; sees all, knows all, defends the innocent.

@Kergen
hahaha .. u r so diplomatic .... do post your experience with the engine kill though... im sure u will find it makes little difference against a pilot of equal skill.

i think what would be a lot better than engine kill is the ability to strafe faster... the strafe speed is so low it barely makes a diff (but it does help a bit! ) ive managed to out-strafe shots on a chicken run and come off with less damage than the opponent ..... but timing is key coz the strafe is so slow

the other kewl trick is to suddenly thruster a change of direction on a chicken run and at the right moment reverse thrust to screw up the guys aim... risky manouvre but works on occasion once again, timing very important!

please note, all these are for PVP only! the AI is so stupid u dont need anything more advanced than the "circle him till he is dead" manouvre

and once again, i would like to extend my apologies to those i have offended... but please do read the posts carefully before replying ....

@maswastage/BG

arghh ..

the assumption is so you can properly determine which ship is better .... who beats who in PVP in reality is irrelevant to this discussion

lab experiments always have a controlled test environment to determine what is best and blah blah blah .... these controlled test environments fix the variables to a generally accepted consensus. as you said, in reality things are not always what they seem. but the experiments do prove what is best or how things should work and what not....

in our little experiment to determine which ship is best, you have to have a controlled environment. and in this case, the only controlled factor we need is pilot skill and weapon/item class. with these variables fixed, the only factor left that determines which ship is best, is the ship itself.

science... u gotta love it ....

so yes, i do understand your gripe that a better titan player could kick a lousy eagle to other side of the sirius sector and back ... the problem is this, the eagle player has gotta be pretty damn lousy to lose to a titan! hehehehe

so i agree with you on both counts .... so stop arguing with me! heehhe

fact 1: eagle - best ship to use!

fact 2: will eagle pilot ALWAYS win? depends on the skill!

ok? ... sorry for misunderstanding your original post on different skill .... but i guess it happens ....

PS: i guess im guilty of my own comment about not reading posts properly!! hahaha stupid me!!! my bad!

Edited by - noelho on 06-04-2003 05:48:16

no hard feelings; I understand what you're saying. Sorry if i offended (or annoyed) you in any way.


-From the gates of Heaven to the depths of Hell; one, the Protecter; sees all, knows all, defends the innocent.

space monkeysssss!!!! arghhhhhhhhhh Anyone here read John Brown's essay on dom kavash and etc? good stuff! hahahaha

http://www.lancersreactor.com/t/forum/t ... c_id=12633

I have played probably the best space fighter game there is, Xwing vs. Tiefighter. If you want to learn anything about dogfighting, you should play that game, even though its old.
The ship is completely irrelevant in this case. The sabre and eagle are so closely matched that it is the pilot that wins the battle. Having equal pilots means nothing, because if you have two great pilots, they would both use their ships advantages, two horrible pilots and that extra manuevering or gun doesn't even come into effect.

In XvT I could take a TieFighter, no shields, barely a hull, and beat some of the best pilots there was in a Xwing, you just have to use the extra manueverability, and not only that, but shape of the ship, location of weapons, ect. I could take that Xwing, and rip a Tiefighter in half too, if you know how to do it, its not easy.
I would play 8 player games in a Tiefighter (which are very intense) while the others would take huge souped up ships, and guess who won? I did, the guy that in one shot could get killed.
So don't think this debate here is the least bit sensible, or has any real thought or depth to it. The fact is it is the pilot, and only the pilot that wins the battle.
Both ships are close to equal, and I know you all think you are super stars and perfect pilots, but you aren't, and you can't manuever perfectly, and the others can't shoot perfectly to make the extra gun mean anything.
Personally, I'd take the sabre in SP (makes those 150k missions easy), but probably the eagle in MP, not to say I would ever take a sabre lightly, that would make me a dumb pilot...

@AA0

thanks for thoroughly flogging the already dead, rotting horse...

you also just re-affirmed my post but from another view point! ....(2 posts back where i talk about experiments and science)

oh pls note the following

---

Having equal pilots means nothing, because if you have two great pilots, they would both use their ships advantages, two horrible pilots and that extra manuevering or gun doesn't even come into effect.

---

having equal pilots means A LOT when the Sabre's advantages aren't worth anything! if you have two great pilots .. the Sabre will die A LOT more often .. he might get one or two kills in .. but he would still die a lot more often

argh ... space monkeyzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

just to help clarify the scenario ... lets set more experiment controls ...

1. dog fighting 1 on 1 with NO ONE ELSE TO disturb you.
2. EQUAL SKILL & CONCENTRATION from both pilots
3. You may use Nanos & shields
4. Both start with full load of everything.
5. When you die and respawn, you may reload your armaments.
6. When you kill the other guy, you gotta wait for him to respawn and continue AS IS without reloading your armaments!!

now, if you follow the above rules and test the ships out, you will find that the only reason a Sabre pilot will get some kills in, is due to number 6! If the eagle pilot is allowed to reload on shields/nanos/armaments. The sabre pilot is pretty much screwed...

now before i get any more flak about "I AM A GREAT SABRE PILOT! NO EAGLE BOY CAN TOUCH ME! blah blah blah.." go join a server that gives u a low ping, get a friend whom you know to be equally skilled to join that server, and duke it out. you will find my experiment rings true .... pls dont cheat yourself by dogfighting with a dimwit and saying he was of equal skill!

also keep in mind that although i say the eagle will win most of the time, it is NOT an easy task when both pilots are equally matched! if the eagle pilot slacks off, he is as good as dead ... so the experiment boundaries are pretty strict. both pilots have to be of EQUAL SKILL & CONCENTRATION through out the dogfight. but its all just to prove the point that Eagle is the better ship ...

the better pilot? ... thats up to you to train up ....

FYI: do try taking on those 250K missions using an eagle .. u will find it MUCH MUCH easier .. that extra turret really doesnt help as much as the manouvreability.

as i said in an earlier post, i fought 8 sabres ... while flying A SABRE .... found it MUCH MUCH easier when flying an EAGLE instead of the sabre .....

regarding your dog fights in X-Wing Tie-Fighter ... it TOTALY DOES NOT APPLY IN FL! ... the ship speeds in FL are the same, only diff being the turn rate. If im not mistaken, ships have DIFF speeds in XvsT ... and u can also do a lot of other variable factor stuff .. like play with shields, etc ... so lets keep dog fighting experience to FL ... and if u really did beat those guys while flying a tie fighter and you were shield-less with low hull, they must have really really sucked! how can you call them some of the best? trying blow your own trumpet? hehehe

have u actually tried PVP in FL? .. please do try it ... it is A LOT more arcade-like when compared to xvt ..... so yeah .. thanks for re-affirming my posts

just so you know im not biased towards eagle, i am actually a Sabre fan boy who was beaten by an equally skilled friend in an eagle during PVP.... once i switched to Eagle, the kills between him and me were 50-50

there .. i think the horse has been sufficiently beaten to a bloody pulp by now ..

Edited by - noelho on 06-04-2003 08:44:02

until i get a sabre and check it out, i'm staying with the eagle fans.. besides, haven't i told you that i squished 6 sabres flat in my eagle? well, lemme at to that, that i didn't get a scratch on my butiful bird... as for looks, i gotta check the sabre out... it looked kinda kool when it went spiraling and breaking apart... and the titan? well, looks like a pig with terodyctyl wings.. i'd say the hammerhead is good, but that was when i came in with my falcon, nearly got thrashed if i wasn't near the jump hole... by 6 hammerheads, i was doing a 120k mission, taking out the bounties' base... 6 hammerheads was what i had to get rid of b4 i could cruise back... but i wouldn't bet on them for looks, but they were really like flies, real hard to get at..
and dealing out 5000 damage with 4 guns ? i got to check that out... i might be doing about... 4000 damage with my 6 guns and 1 turret (doesn't it fire forward??) in my eagle.

presently, my world is upside down, so if u do not mind, u'll have to tok to my a$$

I'm not saying that XvT is anywhere close to this game, it is a whole lot better of a fighter game by far. And just because they are some of the best, doesn't mean I wasn't better
I only know one person that could beat me in the years I played, and even then it was just a little over 50%. I only use it as a reference because I believe it to be the best dogfighter game of all time, you have control over just about everything you can think of, power system, shields, throttle, weapon power, the ships weren't customible with weapons loads (for cannons), but it didn't need to be.

There is no such thing as equal skilled pilots, only in your imagination. One asteriod, or one blink of an eye is all it takes to throw the other person off enough to end them. If I was in a sabre, I would rush the fight, be very aggressive and pound the eagle, if I was in a eagle, I would fight much slower, take a pace and wait to attack until I should, if I were to fight the same style in both ships (like 99% of people do), I'd get wasted in one for sure.

And never pick a ship that is the best in one very limited scenario, pick one that works best for all dog fighter, which is why I would give the edge to the sabre in a asteriod field, but the eagle in open space.

Anyone else notice that the eagle tends to have a little less power? I've tested drain on heavy weapons, and it lasts about 1.5secs less. I'd like to see real power stats, and manueverability stats.

I do intend to try pvp, but still doing fine in sp right now. Every mp I'd tried has sucked, and its not always the game, but the oppenents are just horrid. On average, the AI is more challenging, and I'm completely serious. Since FL is not a game designed for great pilots, I don't expect much more, than again, I don't expect there to be too much I can do in a cockpit either, a true fighter game has joystick support, it can be no other way. My two cents.

"no such thing as equal pilots" Didn't I just say that in my post above? Didn't I explain how one pilot would always be more skilled? Didn't I then explain that I understand what noelho was trying to say; that this in a controled environment, the eagle comes out on top? Didn't Noelho agree that it does depend on the pilot, but that since we are testing the ships (and NOT the pilots) we will assume that the pilots are of equal skill. Am I the only one getting the feeling that we are all just repeating ourselves?


-From the gates of Heaven to the depths of Hell; one, the Protecter; sees all, knows all, defends the innocent.

maswastage/BG! I love you dude! (totaly platonic!) finally someone who understands my pain!

AA0, please read my post carefullyyyyyyyy ...

and I did mention that we cant compare XvT and FL, eventhough you are a dogfighting god in XvT, as per your claim

i agree flight/space sim AIs in general are better than your average human, but the AI in FL plain sux ... its a joke really ... unless the AI has better weapons & ships, it will get creamed for sure!

AA0, since u havent tried PVP, please reserve your comments of dogfighting in FL till after uve tried it!

and regarding lack of joystick support, i found the mouse control interface surprisingly good. sure it doenst have the feel of a joystick. but you have to agree they did a pretty good job so as to make the game more accessible to the general player. Someone on another post has mentioned that it would be cool to be able to use the joystick with mouse ... imagine being able to pilot your ship on your joystick (fire buttons control the speed/thrust) and aim with your mouse .. makes the backward firing turrets on fighter much more useful!
also allows ALOT MORE SKILLED piloting to take precedence!

imagine joystick and mouse combo support for freelancer! u steer with the joystick and aim with the mouse! so i could turn my ship hard left, while firing at a target on the right side of my ship! Turret view would be INFINITELY more useful!!!! this would kill my experiment completely, because then the interface is too variable! the variables would be too great to come to a concrete solution. and this game would be slightly more like XvT. now XvT! whoa! major amount of variables there! hehehe anyway .. im beginning to ramble ...

lets get back to topic ... hammerhead ... supposedly has the best turn rate of all the HF and VHFs. too bad its only a level 9 ship

though i have not tried it out in a PVP game. anyone with experience on this? i am interested to know. I think ill give it a try and post my findings here. It might just be better than the eagle if it really can turn that fast! given the same experiment.... hmmm i will dogfight my friend and let you guys know!

PS. i know its only in my own imagination, but my friend that i speak of is actually roughly the same skill as I coz we kill each other at a rate of 1 for 1. We dogfight using my experiment rules (I have ALSO mentioned this in my earlier POST!) stop making me repeat myself!!!!! grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

thank you.


-From the gates of Heaven to the depths of Hell; one, the Protecter; sees all, knows all, defends the innocent.

don't worry, I read your post. You can compared dogfighting in any game really, the same rules still apply.
The excuse I found for lack of joystick support was poor at best, the mouse is so limiting, it isn't funny, but they did a decent job of mouse only. Joysticks would get a lot of newbs confused on piloting, it can be tricky, but all the best pilots would use it, no question.