Next, I'd like to discuss moderation.

Another point some from the X2 community has made is the amount of moderation that we endure here on TLR. In the past, I have not minded it. For example, when Minister Phobia openly argued against the moderation on TLR last year. I did not agree with him then, but perhaps he had a point. While I don't honestly believe that our mods close threads just to get a power rush, I do think that many threads are closed unneccessarily. For example, the latest joystick discussion, which actually was managing to not degenerate into insults, was closed because it was "going in circles." So what? It has been going in circles for year, and joystick support is for sure not even going to be in the game. There is ultimately no harm in it being discussed in the event that it is done rationally. I don't support closing threads like this. Closing threads that have "outlived their usefulness" is more of a gray area, as I feel that while some threads to sometime degenerate into spam, they would eventually die by themselves.


I believe that the majority of the community here at TLR has the ability to, for the most part govern ourselves, like Stinger has recently asked us to do. Let us decide when threads are going in circles, or have outlived their usefulness. Of course, we also respect that it is your website, but perhaps maybe they at X2 were right about something. Closing a lot of posts does perhaps give an intimidating attitude torwards newcomers. I've seen some that when making their first post say "Please don't ban me, but" or something similiar that seems apologetic before they've even really said anything! That just doesn't seem right. I do agree that the post that said "Come to X2 where the big sticks play" or whatever was inappropriate and should have been locked/deleted. Pure advertising is against the rules and extremely disrespectful.

On the other hand, we are moving closer to going gold, and we will no doubt be flooded with newcomers who feel they have something new to add, trolls who just want to spam, and everything in between. With exception of the trolls, maybe we should let them express their views anyway? And let other people react to it, even if it does end up going in circles. I think overall TLR has an excellent community and for the most part gets by maturely, and I think we would only be better for adopting this sort of policy. I understand that, while the website is ultimately Bargib's, and it is his decision, I honestly don't think doing this would bring any harm to TLR. We will need strong moderators who can sort out the garbage "THIS GAME SUCKS NO JOYSTICK OMG D00DZ" from the legitament posts that sometimes do get caught up in the "garbage", while allowing free discussion about all aspects of the game, good and negative. I definitely believe that the moderators we have can do the job. Just a minor policy change

Continued in next reply.

The last subject I want to discuss is the community in general. First off, I want to say that TLR is the finest community I have had the pleasure to be a part of, and will ever be part of. Well, web community anyway I feel close to a lot of people here, and want to welcome newcomers into this "family" as well. That said, I think our community might have some minor problems. Perhaps its just a personal one for me, but sometimes I do catch myself being perhaps too arrogant to someone who comes onto the forums who openly (and not always constructively) criticizes Freelancer. I guess that is a natural reaction for me, since I have always liked the concept of Freelancer and have actually played it. Of course, I've sometimes realized when I have stepped over the line and have sometimes e-mailed users privately and apologized (Derek Smart of all people being one of them actually, hehe). Perhaps thats a good thing, but it makes me wonder why I should have to apologize.

TLR is a space sim fansite. Further than that, it is a site mainly focusing on Freelancer. So, on one hand one automatically feels defensive of their game, and sometimes that can lead to feelings being hurt. I can sympathize with that, as over the last two years I have defended the concept of Freelancer from doubters. Not always as nicely as I should have perhaps, but I have. Sometimes, I and others get "tired" of it and that can result in being overly rude sometimes. Perhaps you can say some deserve it. I like to think the majority of the posts I have defended Freelancer from were generally insulting. A lot were. I've been called a dumb console user, brown noser, and so on. Quite a few have insulted everybody who has played the game. It happens frequently on the X2 forum. Part of me wants to say, "screw them, they havn't played it, they don't know," but the other part of me wants to say "well here is why FL is better than that!" and try to convince them. I think the latter part should dominate, but it is not always possible. I can't apologize to every person I've been rude to, but perhaps an open one would do, and that in the future I will try to be more friendly and curteous as we near the release date.

I don't really want TLR to be a clique dictatorship. It wasn't when I arrived, and I don't really believe it is now, but things happen slowly over two years and maybe I don't see it. Despite the X2 communities disrespectful attitude torwards TLR "any moderation is bad moderation" perhaps we have grown into a clique. Then again, I can name some people who were not "believers" when they first came, and some were even downright hostile. Natrunner comes to mind as being the most recent. We had a fairly colorful discussion about FL a while back, and hurtful things were said, yet we both remain members of the community and I believe the community is better for having him a member. So perhaps we aren't really a clique, just defensive. And defensive we should be. Freelancer has had an "eventful" development cycle and is often ridiculed, yet for some reason we know that FL will be a great game, either because we've played it, listened to others who have, or just have that instinctual feeling, like you got when you loaded up Elite or Privateer.

So my question to you is this. What can we do to improve our community? I vow to be more curteous to newcomers, trying to be less "arrogant" and be more helpful overall. Yet, I fear that this will not be enough. In the eyes of other we are more of a club than a true family. Is this how we really are? If so, we have errored and perhaps we should remedy the situation. What can we do? Is there anything we CAN do? Do we really need to do anything?

Your thoughts?

One thing I would like to add. As an example of "seperating the garbage from the legitament posts" would be the "Convince me" thread. The thread itself was fine, until tagos came in and started insulting. That could have been moved to a new thread manually instead of letting it continue in that one, perhaps? Just a thought.

Edit: In this context it makes it seem as if I believe his opinion is garbage. I don't think so, but it belonged in another thread and not that one.

Edited by - Tachyon on 29-01-2003 01:28:53

The tread is so long that I couldn't ignore it and I have to show my respect to hardworking Tach.

I still do not know much of x2 so no comments on that.

I agree about closing treads. It should be the community's to decide plus it makes mods feel more important than they are.
Take EB for example. He's really a - but he thinks he's a +++!
(no offence, E We need a neutral mod who's interest for FL isn't maniacal.
Or just make Tach mod .

To improuve the community, we need stickies or occasionally bumps treads like Vagabond's Joystick Tread.
(and lynch the one who closed it). That's all for today, and if this post gets edited, I might suspect a military "coup d' etat" on this board.



-----
It can't be! No on foot mode in Freelancer!

Would you care to follow me... --DEATH

wow great post man

i feel like part of the family you talked about although i have not posted much i have derived a great deal of pleasure over the time i have been visiting these forums and i have developed a very real affection for the members (well most of them ) that post here regularly and i know what you mean when you say that this place feels more like a club than a community/family but in the next few months i think the experiance and dedication of the hardcore members will pay off big time as the community expands as more and more new members come in and get a feel for the place hopefully the feeling they will get is of a well run site with overall a helpfull and tolerent bunch of people interacting around a really good game.

that is certainly what i hope happens and while i share some of your concerns (a minor policy change with relation to locked threads)i dont think you have any need to worry really,things will work out just fine in the long run.

i will just finish off by saying that as far as improving this site/forum we should all strive to be more tolerent in a number of areas but overall i think we will be suprised how well things will go

later....

This is deep. I had to think long and hard on a response. I believe that the two communities can coexist together as friends and rivals. Gamers in general play more than one game at once. I do. One day I'm playing a FPS and the next day I'm playing a sim. Focusing ONLY on one game gives one a myopic point of view and lessens enjoyment.

I came to this forum almost a year ago. I've seen alot of people come and go. But the focus was always the same. Freelancer. It was never a competition with other groups or gamers. Just pure expectation and a common love for space sims(Privateer and the WC universe being my favorites).

I gladly and will always except newcomers. I repect any question that is legitimate and honest. Bargib does. Why shouldn't I also?

To my friend Tachyon, maybe we've had colorful differences because we are alot alike. I gotten to know you and respect you for the vast amount of knowledge you have about FL.

The moderators question is only for the moderators to solve. They have the power and influence to make such decisions. I will leave it up to the "Fleet Admirals and Commodores" and other higher ranking guys to assist the moderators. Good luck and God Bless.




I came. I saw. I conquered. And sometimes get conquered.

Wow, good stuff there.

I know I haven't been a part of the community for very long so take my comments as you please.

On the thread closings....The moderators have their reasons. They were made moderators for a reason so we should trust their judgement in handling this matter. All in all though this forum has been a great and positive place. Good reading when avoiding homework too.

On the X2 community...I personally think its a waste of time worrying about what other people think about you or your game of choice. I've come to realize that for whatever reason some people can't help but be mean. Usually its only a few mean people, but they stand out more than the nice ones. So just worry about the things you can control, this site and forum. Those people seem to be unhappy about something, and for whatever reason don't like FL. Maybe it threatens their baby X2, who knows. If they come here and start trouble then the moderators should do what they have to do. Another thing to think about to put it into perspective, do you really want to get into an arguement with some childish person over the internet? Try not to let their negativity bring you down or rile you up.

Anyway, good luck to all that entered the contest.

I'm done babbling....time for homework


Edit: hehe, replaced a not too bad word that the language program didn't like with "mean".

Edited by - Shark747 on 29-01-2003 02:36:14

God bless Tach and God save TLR!

In the final analysis, we, the members of TLR, are what make this site great. Whether you feel like discussing joystick v. mouse, talking about what other games have to offer, or just want to have a rant this should be the place for it. I, for one, like to come here a dozen times a day and read the different opinions and news about FL.

I do not believe in slamming the fine folks of this site.
I do not believe in slamming other games on this site.
It comes down that old saying, Cant Say Something Nice, Dont Say It At All. It seems that most people who wish to engage in debate have a misconception that just the willy nilly nay saying or slamming of something is a debate. This is not so. To debate, you must make an arguement supported by data and thought. An arguement devoid of thought is more commonly referred to as FLAMING with things like "so-n-so is a ninny"

Good job Tach.
Bargib, you are doing a great job!

DeckRoid

p.s. - Bargib, when you do get that kickback check from MS, don't forget your loyal members! LOL...

Greetings Tachyon... May I first welcome you to the X forums, I hope that you will contribute you're thoughts on X2 as well as you do with Freelancer!

I feel that you have misrepresented the majority of the X community. Yes many of us do look at the lancer reactor, just as you we are interested in both Freelancer and X2, and yes the do as you put it report back noteworthy information, thus keeping the entire community in the picture about Freelancers development.

We are luck in the X community as we have liberal Moderators whom have allowing the community to flourish, then they come here and see more visible signs of moderation, and just like Grease looking at Sparta we forget the level of freedom we are allowed in the X forum and so react in horror over things that are different... I apologise for the reactions of my fellow X'er's.

You must understand our position, as 'DEATH AT THE DOOR' said he/she does not know about X2 thus as fans of our beloved X we feel duty bound to provide information and just like you're community we have are fanatics, who see an X post disappear or get locked and express their frustration in a very human way. The idea of bribes is simply because many of us believe that a fair debate about X2 has gone on here... You do not regularly share info on other games all that much, which is understandable as this is a Freelancer Forum but on the X2 forum we have discussed (and continue to watch) many games, not just Sci-fi but whatever people are interested in... Once again this is all down to the differences in the forums... Also it doesn't help that we have a strong Lunex following in the forum so every once and a while Microsoft does catch a few broad sides but that has nothing to do with the majority of the forum.

Finally the X forum has and will continue to make jokes about Freelancer, Microsoft, smoked Haddock and a whole range of other topics including our own game! We as a whole have never meant to commit to some kind of forum 'war' but we do have our doubts about Freelancer, but most of us have not made any serious pre-judgements yet... If it's any good we'll buy it, if not we won't simple as that... I look forward to more clement relations in the future.

Thank you for reading

Edited by - x-pilot on 29-01-2003 03:07:09

Edited by - x-pilot on 29-01-2003 03:09:01

Edited by - x-pilot on 29-01-2003 03:14:50

Click! (Just kidding.)

Interesting, very interesting. And I thought I was long winded! Good post Tach.

Over two years of being here I've closed less than 20 threads (19 to be exact). I gave up a long time ago being concerned about my reputation as a moderator. When I get out of line, Gibby let's me know. Can't please all the people all the time. I'm not mistake proof, but I have learned through trial and error what is acceptable.

I'm just now starting to really have fun reading all these new posters messages. The more the better. In the next month or so things are really going to be hopping around here. This activity is nothing compared to what it might be when Freelancer hits the shelves. The numbers of hits continue to rise daily, so all of us (Gibby, Mods, and everyone who posts a message/reply) must be doing something right.

I spoke with Gibby about this last week. There wasn't near this amount of energy surrounding the forums around the time Starlancer came out. We might just be on the verge of something big here folks, and everyone who visits this website is a part of it.

Great original post(s) tho!

Very well thought out post Tach and well written. I agree with most of what you said there, but the decision on what threads should be closed and what shouldn't be is left squarely at the feet of the Moderators and Bargib. Sometimes I do feel a thread is closed prematurely or without proper reason, but I have never considered it to be a big deal. I usually just give it a shrug and have a look at the next thread.

The one thing I do not tolerate at all is people who post for the specific reason of stirring up trouble. No-one is infallable folks, everyone is entitled to make mistakes from time to time, even moderators. May it be a inapprapriately closed thread from time to time or loosing your cool at an in-opportune moment. But if your sole purpose is to mock the forum rules and make slanderous remarks then you will never be recieved kindly by me.

and give EB a break DATD, he's one of the more colorfull charectors around here and a good guy.

---

On the thread closings....The moderators have their reasons. They were made moderators for a reason so we should trust their judgement in handling this matter.

---

Yup, if someone tells us to jump, whe should ask him "how high?". I agree that we have a most competent mod team, but everyone might make mistakes.

X-Pilot, welcome. My lack of knowledge prevents me from building a sure oppinion on your post, but I do not think they are forcing us to praise MS or FL. I cannot deny that I have a strong hatred for all those "M$ haters" but this board seems liberal enough.

-----
It can't be! No on foot mode in Freelancer!

Would you care to follow me... --DEATH

First of all I'd like to say that this is by far the best run forum ive ever been a member of (also the most tightly controlled) and the most fun. However about the locking so many threads thing: here is what it says about the off-topic forum

This is where you can discuss your homework, family, make strange sounds and otherwise discuss things which are really not related to the Lancer-series

now this is the one area that i have a problem with locking threads in, every forum needs a loony bin of some kind where people can rant and complain about various things for example wizard's post titled "i know this will be locked but..."
was not about anything vulgar or a flame war it might have been superfluous but that is no reason to be locked. Anyway thats just what i think, that we should be allowed to post more random but not inane threads in the off-topic forum without fear of having them locked.
Next i don't think a thread should be locked unless it is turning into a flame war or something potentially harmful. random discussions should not be locked for example what are we going to do when the game is 2 days from being released and we cannot vent our anticipation. no thead should be lock because it is "going in circles" as Tachyon said why is going in circles bad?
Anyway this is just what i think and this is not my site so feel free to disagree, and if things aren't changed it won't matter all that much to me but it might be nice to know that i could post something without fear of being locked.

p.s. salute to Tachyon for bringing this up

I rule the world incognito!

Thanks for your feedback so far, guys! And welcome, X-Pilot. I read your post, yet compare it to what I read earlier today... It doesn't seem like the people on your forum are joking. Jokes are "haha" funny, not cruel and insulting. Perhaps I am confusing your loud minority for the general consensus, if I am then I apologize, and request that you control them a bit better.