Ok, fair enough... what about the rest?

What about it ('Vitamin R' - Methylphenidate is the real name)? Are you also facetiously suggesting that I have ADHD or that I should start taking a potential carcinogen?

Edited by - The Evil Thing on 5/26/2006 4:41:31 AM

i was reiterating my emphasis on taking responsibility, not referring to an actual vitamin.

"This is hypocrisy. There were fewer rules about fireworks back then. As more rules were introduced, quality controls etc. came into place, injuries went down. You are tooting the results of the very philosophy we (us sane people) are trying to explain as evidence for why we shouldn't impose restrictions on fireworks.

Also worth noting is that between those years (assuming injury rate went down steadily whereas it would have stayed constant and not increased as more were sold) over twenty five thousand people were not injured as a result of restrictions."

as i've said earlier i'm not against restrictions - i think designated areas would be a good idea, and i'm not against the safety criteria the government has imposed on manufacturers - what i am against is a total ban that robs us of a liberty which most of us can excercise without causing fires and injuries to others. i think such a ban is based on the naziesque concept of collective responsiblity - if they were to pass a tough law that would actually hold the particular offenders responsible, i would have no problem with it.

the rest were the same emotional counterarguments we've already seen, repeated in a different way - so i didn't address them.

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so you would favor....Fireworks Licenses for consumer grade fireworks? get real!

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If your government can afford it, why not? if citizens are willing to pay tax for that purpose, why not? Safe fireworks license is better than no consumer fireworks at all, right? but you're correct - it won't be "real". That's why your government just banned it altogether.

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i believe in the right to life,liberty,and the pursuit of happineess - and the HAPPINESS people derive from fireworks is far greater than any damage they've caused, or else they never would have been legal.

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and may I ask you, why does the RIGHT TO LIFE comes BEFORE the pursuit of happiness? especially, lives of others who constitute these collateral casualties of fireworks? but right, not too many lives are lost over fireworks. How about liberty from fears of getting burns? and happiness that comes from having intact and regulation number of body organs? do your liberty and happiness supersede those?

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liberty is an excercise in responsibility, and as i see it there are a lot of lazy countries represented here, countries with neither the responsible citizens nor the liberty to properly use fireworks. frankly, i'm glad you people aren't allowed anything dangerous, as buckets and bicycles are probably the limit of what you can handle.

*cleaning his rifle and thanking his lucky stars he had the luck to be born in a country where liberty is truly valued*

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you're quite right, my country is not a very nice one, liberty-wise. And I do think that you are quite lucky to be born where you are. But listen to yourself. You post on a Denmark-based website forum. A FORUM. On the Internet, the closest thing to a liberal utopia. Did you think that you can post here and find this international community to echo everything you say? why post anything, then? it would be futile, considering you think people will agree 100% to your stance. This might surprise you, but in a forum, people sometimes disagree!
And when you find that things did not go your way, you started calling us "people from lazy countries" ohh I can now see how much you value liberty. YOUR liberty, that is. Not our liberty to say what we want to say. Watch out, Lancers! value this guy's liberty or he'll call your country lazy!

If you claim that your country is truly democratic, then you would do well to accept your city council's decision. Next time, vote for the guy whose slogan is "Free Fireworks!" that's about it that you can do.

PS: gun ownership actually makes more sense than unchecked fireworks. At least you have to fill in forms for guns.

you're absolutely right - the right to 'life'(being worryfree) trumps liberty everytime. its all so clear to me now!

i'm truly sorry about offending certain people, but i felt that rubbing a little salt in would motivate a little more introspection about what it means to excercise responsibility in a society where you're free to carry a (registered)concealed lethal weapon in public.

i didn't create this thread because i expected to find support, i created it because i felt that the west is losing sight of the principles we claim to uphold and i felt i was defending them. i see now the majority would much rather have safety than liberty and no amount of philosophical or statistical argument will alter their engrained attitudes

@Cold_Void

This has not been a debate, really. It has been an argument in which suggestions that the facts you relied upon to support your position were open to more than the single intepretation you posited.

You haven't defended liberty, you haven't defended the principles of Western democracy. All you've really done is interpose sarcasm, personal insult and an insistence that your position is the absolute and that the rest of us have no valid argument except to be "failures" in your opinion.

You may want to look in the mirror next time before you suggest that the rest of us are so undeserving of your respect.

<Edited Typo>





Edited by - Indy11 on 5/26/2006 6:47:35 AM

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Comparing cars and fireworks is stupid

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nice literate well balanced argument FF who rattled your cage i dont remember calling you stupid ever, no matter how silly any of your comments were
i stated my case for the comment there was no reason to be rude in reply
i dont ask you to agree with me just to be civil

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And the benefits of cars? can I really enumerate them here? cars take you to parties, transport goods and people and basically one of the primary pillars of economies in ANY country

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very little in the economy is dependent on the car most of your benefits are as you stated for fireworks JOY
economy and road traffic is the domain of trucks/vans etc not private vehicles
you can go to a party in a bus or walk but thats not as much fun is it ?

Edited by - [steel on 5/26/2006 7:08:08 AM

Indy11 - you are quoting something i didn't say, that no one has said. search the page for failure, go back a page and search that too.then retract your 'quote'.

as to respect, yes - if you are willing to sacrifice liberty for safety in any matter from fireworks to firearms, you have to some degree lost my respect. no big loss though, since you have such a low opinion of me.

I'm sorry if you felt I called you or your statement stupid. I did not mean to do so. My comment was totally uncalled for.

I just thought that the comparison was rather apples-and-oranges kind; cars and fireworks are not really comparable, seeing how they exist on different levels of essentiality.

Yes, cars do have social and joyful uses. But many other more essential uses came before those. Cars are essential, not as essential as oxygen or water, but certainly far more essential than fireworks. Car manufacturing (both personal and public-use vehicles) and trade are big moneymakers for US and Japan, for example (can somebody pull numbers and compare car industry GDP contribution to fireworks industry GDP contribution?).

And why should we differentiate trucks and buses and personal/privately owned cars? don't trucks and buses get into traffic accidents as well?

and why can't privately owned cars contribute to economy? the high percentage of privately owned cars contribute directly and indirectly to automotive markets, roads, tolls, bridges, tunnels, etc (all of which need construction and maintenance), all of which provide jobs and, in turn, taxable incomes for your government. Many small/micro-scaled industries rely on private cars for transportation of people and goods. Fireworks industry can't claim the same, I'm afraid.

High-end brand cars contribute to national pride and identity - ask US' Ford, Italy's Lamborghini, and German Volkswagen. Not so about fireworks.

Well, we could argue that fireworks keep hospitals in business.

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Anyways, the fact remains that a bucket is 10 times more likely to kill a child than a firework, and a bicycle 60 times more likely to injure.

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and

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add to these facts that "although consumption of fireworks in the U.S. has increased in recent years from 29 million pounds per year to 80 million pounds per year, the rates of fireworks-related injuries have actually decreased. The injury rate, per 100,000 pounds of fireworks used, dropped from 38.3 in 1976 down to 10.1 in 1995 - a 74% drop in the injury rate."

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No mention of where these statistics come from, and sadly - no apparent thought as to what may actually cause the increases apart from civilian buyers. In the UK i wouldn't be suprised to see similiar stats for increase in money spent - but for several reasons.
1) Fireworks are more expensive
2) Hundreds of thousands can be spent on displays in every city.
3) Massive fireworks displays also now occur on New Years Eve, large public events and more.

It's no longer just one night, but many nights. It also isn't just a couple of rockets for a family... we're talking 5 huge displays and 20 smaller ones across the city. Last bonfire night we were surrounded by 200 foot starbursts that rattled the windows from a mile or two away. Each one of those bad boys costs a flippin fortune (display mortars only), and yet they fire 100 or more of them.

As for the bicylce, even if that statistic was genuine, the problem remains as thus:
1) Nearly all children play with bicycles.
2) Bicycles don't come with saftey instructions - its balance, and you naturally fall off when learning.

If we gave fireworks to all under five year olds as well (with suitable lighting apparatus), I would assume the figures would level out or go the other way.

A lot of heat over whether fireworks should be banned, but I only really notice a "civil liberty" arguement being for ensuring these fireworks remain free. Bottom line is that fireworks are explosives - and to use explosives in this country you require permits and licenses except in the case of fireworks. I imagine that you will be able to apply for a license/permit to be able to use fireworks for public displays - is this right?

Maybe it is overbearing protectiveness, but I'm more than happy to sacrifice my own civil liberty of putting a starburst into the sky in order to allow others to enjoy their civil liberty of not being attacked/terrified by children. In a perfect world we could have both, but without the police resources available to nick every single under age purchaser, every single malicious fireworks user etc - something has to give... and that something is the simplest and cheapest point.

The firework.

all the statistics i quoted are from cpsc.gov, the Consumer Product Safety Commission. their statistical data comes from the emergency room and first responders - not fireworks manufacturers.

legal fireworks are not explosive(barring mortars). explosives are illegal to possess without a license and that includes m-80's cherrybombs silver salutes etc - except on native american's reservations because they are recognized as sovereign nations and enact their own laws.

Edited by - Cold_Void on 5/26/2006 2:19:23 PM

Since the data is from emergency rooms, then it obviously deals with raw figures based upon admission to the ER. It doesn't consider the wider view drawing comparisons upon time frames of admissions (ie bikes ridden all year, fireworks only available for a few weeks) or alternatively, on the larger number of participants (nearly every child has a bike i'd imagine, whereas none should be playing with fireworks at all!). Hence why, as always, i not only question the figures people quote - but find them completely misleading as well. That is why I asked for links when quoting the figures, because at least we could check out whether those figures do take into account the vast differences in numbers of children riding bikes all year, and those playing with fireworks for just a few days. In other words, was it based purely on yearly admissions only?


As for reservations, issues occur over here with both alcohol and cigarettes. Big smuggling trade in both, constant fight for customs and police. Whether the kids all pile onto reservations or not will be something you can let us know upon in the coming months.

Oh, and fireworks are explosives - light them and the go boom. They were just never legislated/licensed before due to historical significance imo. Same with smoking, these days they ban drugs that are carcinogenic - yet fags still get sold by the gazillion to the world... just because it's always been there. Of course, they are now banning smoking from public places etc instead, another "liberty" being curbed.

Edited by - Chips on 5/26/2006 2:36:22 PM

Cold_Void, there are lies, damn lies and statistics. Please give us the direct link to the page you got those data (yes, Chips, 'data' is plural) from.

I went to the site, searched for fireworks and got nothing that seemed to resemble your fact(oid)s so you'll have to meet us halfway here. I then searched for bikes and didn't find anything there, either.

And someone please explain to me what the obsession with fireworks is all about? I just don't get why everyone can be so fascinated and enthralled by a bunch of lights in the sky. Big. 'effin. Whoop. Find me some entertainment that actually does something.

you _can_ find all the relevant answers you're asking for by correctly using the *search* function they so kindly provide. and i said emergency room AND first responders - first responders meaning firefighters, police, and medics.
2004 Fireworks Annual Report
(embarassed - it seems that the fire-statistics are NOT available through cpsc)
Fireworksafety.com statistics compilation (statistics are governmental or independents such as the [email protected] )

and no, the cpsc statistics are compiled on both an annual and seasonal(june-july) basis

Edited by - Cold_Void on 5/26/2006 4:28:35 PM