A traditonal, WELCOME BACK!

Thanks FD, It's been like six months....

Back OT: What would happen if you had a disease that made your blood sensitive to the materials used or to anything, wouldn't that make it so that not everyone would have to have one. Then You'd have people out on the street selling doses of the disease.

I guess i forgot that everyone would have the correct equipment to scan. Heck - they can refuse to serve someone for whatever reason they like - guess aids could go with homosexuality, race, religion and dress code too! Discrimination is nothing new, and i do not for one second even entertain that as a 'oh woe be the world - this will ruin us with its discrimination!!!". The information maybe coded, it may NOT be useable by shops etc. Heck - in todays environment everyone could sue if they tried that kind of discrimination.

Weak point that.


About the idea for 'getting confused'. lol I guess you use a mobile - how often do you call your mates and get the wrong phone? How often do you dial a number and it gives you the wrong place (discounting your inability to dial correctly!). Since when would they 'scan' you at traffic lights. Its for medical reasons here - i really doubt they will be scanning every single traffic light settings in the whole of the western hemisphere to stop you jumping red lights............
Regardless of that - they can already do this with Traffic Light Cameras...takes the numberplate. Guess they should ban those - crims could use a false plate huh!

The magnet idea? How many times have you got your credit card wiped? You would need some form of superconducting magnet to do that. The only place i have been warned not to take my credit card near was the supermagnet at Leeds university......but nothing about pacemakers was mentioned. I guess during a nuclear war it could possibly go wrong - but it may WIPE its memory, not fry it. IF it wipes memory, then I guess they may reprogram it.


So you would go to a dirty unlicensed doc to get it removed? I guess we should sell guns with no triggers and no ammo, cars that cannot go over 1mph, and pad everything with foam. You cannot save the terminally retarded from themselves to be honest..........you want a dodgy doc to do that? Fine
As to infection? Its a minor proceedure. I would guess its NOT being open surgery - kinda more like tagging wildlife.......a little probe inserted beneath the skin. Harmless, painless, and takes just a few seconds. Not exactly life threatening - especially when it will be the most hygenic thing near any part of your body for your lifetime.


Wow, those reasons you gave me would FAR outweigh all the good that it could benefit. If everyone stopped going on the 'spy spy spy' line, then maybe you could see the GOOD that this could do.

Don't forget:
1) Who said this is really going to happen?
2) Who said it was going to be compulsory (especially since it would contravene your human rights!)
3) Its not supposed to be for spying - so why do half your arguements just come down to 'futuristic conspiracy theories'.

For all those worried about what they may track - they can already tap your phones, have cctv cams so small you cannot see them, know all your bank details in a second, track your transactions - watch where you go, listen to what you say, and read everything you do over the internet.

So if they can do all that already.............

The bottom line is I won't try to defend this against your personal arguements. Whatever your view, thats fine. If you can only see negative, and not enormous potential.........then thats your narrow foresight! I can conceed that it maybe able to dataharvest....but since its for medical purposes.....what exactly would they harvest. All I read against this is based off of possiblity of it being blah blah blah. You guys need to stop with your consipiracy against everything for once! Blimey - with your thoughts about how everything is out to get you - I am amazed that you guys use a computer, telephone, television and live in a neighbourhood!!!!!


Edited by - Chips on 10/16/2004 10:40:58 AM

@Chips you know how they say make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot? In the same way, make security and they will get a way around it. Its always like that, we see it at school every day, make the security on the schools computers better and the kids get around it again and again. Just like I still want to know how 4 harddrived can fry in a weeks time and those are the four with all the backups on

But I see your point there can be good in it, I think everyone just see more bad than good, you have to remember the people here at TLR are extremely suspicious of EVERYTHING, prolly cus they make so many shady deals themselves

If they want to read your medical records..........then they probabily already can. If they want to find out your address...........then they already can.

If its not used for security measures - or even if it is - wouldn't it be alot more likely that it just gives off a code number? Thats it? Linked to a database from hospitals/police across the country - they match codes up with the info they need. Otherwise you would need to be 'reprogrammed' everytime you had a treatment.

I really doubt it would contain 'information' to any USEFUL extent....it would merely identifiy whom you were, and provide a code for a system to call the information up on. If your worried about that being leaked with its name/address/dob or whatever - and medical records...........then i hope you don't have a bank account, mobile phone, gas/electricity/water/any form of billing at all - because they will have the same data..........apart from your illness records/whether your a donor.

I said i won't argue - but when it may not even contain anything other than a code to call information upon a database up, and you read all these comments about how your vital information can be read by anyone.....well - i gotta respond

"i really doubt they will be scanning every single traffic light settings in the whole of the western hemisphere to stop you jumping red lights"

i guess you either didn't just plain forgot that our wonderful caring Mr Blur has decided that in shortly all new cars sold in Britain will have to be fitted by law with tracking *chips* ostensibly "to cut down on crime." but in effect with satellite and other sureveillance technology, what the hell do you think the Govt is going to do with the ability to track every car in the UK simultaneaously?

go over the speed limit by even a fraction, fine through the post
1 day late with tax/MOT/insurance, court summons through the post
for whatever reason visit/pass through the *wrong* part of time or someone who's under suspicion for whatever reason, regardless of their actual innocence or not - police computers start monitoring you
if you happen to be in the vicinity of any sort of crime, police computers start monitoring you
copper happen to be bored? they start monitoring you

this isn't my paranoia - this is really going to happen, in about two years. its already on the statute books. don't give me any crud about "if you haven't done anything wrong there's nothing to be worried about" because that's just drone-like bull. oddly enough I happen to believe in the rule of the people and individual freedom. if you want to live in a technological police state that's fine by me, don't drag me along with you.

---

"i really doubt they will be scanning every single traffic light settings in the whole of the western hemisphere to stop you jumping red lights"

---

They are already doing this inthe atlanta area. They have cameras positioned to catch those that run red lights, take a pic of your tag and mail you a ticket for it.

As far as them already being able to find my address, ect, they can if they want, it's just that I will not do anything, ie chip in arm, to help them.

there's two sides to this, obviously. chips here is against the general conspiracy theory. i must say he puts up a good argument. we have our rights, and we can reject them cause they go against human rights. we should be given the choice to accept or decline.

besides, if its only a code, why not stick link it to your driver's license, or credit card, or phone number? i think it'd be best to link it up to your driver's license or your passport / society number. since they never change. so calling that number up means you get the driver's license and medical records. afterall, thats all they want the chip for right ?

In the early stages, yes that would be what the say they want, but, once the chip is in, it can then be tied to a lot more information. It isn't that the chip holds the info, but that the chip, like a bar code, can link the information. That is where the problem is. Also, eventually, it will be the law, like wearing seatbelts . They wern't the law before, but they are now, you get fined $25 for not wearing your seat belt. There is a lot wrong with the chip idea. Very wrong.

@Fd, thats actually a good thing, too many accidents are caused by ppl running red lights.

lol Chips you're very right actually, but who knows what else they will put on the chip?
and what if terrorits starts using it? another conspiracy theory yes but I need more time to think one up properly
But ok I got my reasons why I am against it and I cant mention them in here.
But what id they find a way to fry the chips? Whast effect willthat have on you? And if you dont know it is fried it doesnt help you does it?
And how do they know the stuff it is made of and what ever electronical signals is not dangerous and harmful?

(Yes I am being devils advocate )

hear hear FD!

sw - its no transmitter (from what i understand) - it will be redundant - only when scanned (like a barcode) would it be 'read' effectively..........I guess (don't know on this part). At which point they shouldn't really come against things like Elctrical damage. Furthermore - magnets wipe magnetically sealed data - ie, credit cards) and of course........it can jam mechanisms that may turn to work (like watch parts), and polarisable materials - so it should be safe from 'accidental' wiping. Anyways - it wouldn't be that big a deal to have to re-program though...

Hypothetically speaking you can die of a lightning strike, hit by a car, and trip over and crack your skull over. Simply put - unless you work under 'extreme' conditions, then the normal person shouldn't come anywhere near anything that may cause damage!! I would be more worried about being hit by it raining frogs than my code being lost!

As for terrorists....okay, in the future it may hold information. If its just a code to link you, then granted - you never know WHAT they may add to it. Yes - they could scan it, see your medical records, and your criminal history. Maybe that information could be hacked - but you can do that now anyways! So it won't make that much difference to be honset. If you keep records in locked office cupboards.........then can still be broken into. Safes? Still be broken into as well.
There is an element of risk with everything, but this would be minimised.
As for it being a tag that they can steal the identity of....................right now we use a picture that can be up to ten years old or more on passports. Passports are forgeable, 'editable' and more. Everything has a floor, and if we disregard things due to this - then you wouldn't be allowed to fly anywhere! However, it COULD call up the fingerprint of the person - and match you then and there straight to the records. BETTER than a passport at that point!

I heard about the tracking devices for cars, but it depends upon what you think. You do realise that speed cameras are set to go off OVER the limit - usually between 37-42 in a 30 limit, 48-55 in a 40 etc etc. They don't flash away and issue fines on 30.00001 mph!!

If you break the law, so what if you have to pay? You broke the law, its called law enforcement. I have sped in the past, didn't get caught - but if i did, i would have no-one to blame but myself! Speed cameras are the cause of much consternation. I am fed up with the 'its a stealth tax' - no, its not. It only taxes law breakers. If they didn't break the law, then they would have nothing to complain about. The only thing i accept is that they can cause accidents as people break heavily to avoid a ticket. They WERE breaking the law, does that mean we should throw away motoring law because we cannot catch speeders? This would be a more low key, less dangerous method. Sounds good to me, as long as the limits are reasonable!!! (note - reasonable!). It doesn't detract much police time whatsoever, so they are free to do other things........and can you imagine what the worlds roads would be like without any fear of retribution as to breaking speed limits etc? Cameras free the coppers to do other jobs, whilst attempting to keep people from speeding. If there was no law for the roads (or no fear of being caught be the public...) then i shudder to think what this country would be like. I am al for chipping the cars - they could 'turn' off the power when in a high speed persuit - making running a waste of time. That will save lives! However, to counter, maybe they should also introduce 'limiters' that can be set to prevent you speeding. its voluntary,and you can activate it as you pass into a new zone by a flick of a swtich (several switches for different limits). That would stop you getting caught speeding..............

Right now - your registered vehicle doesn't have a license? You get fined. You get warned first if I remember rightly - and I would doubt that will change. BUT - is the owness upon yourself to stay within regulations? Or should those regulations allow for you to be lax/lazy/forgetful. I wouldn't have problem - your supposed to have a legally safe road car. If you do not have insurance, tax or MOT - then you SHOULD be fined. We shouldn't be making allowances for failure to comply with the laws you should have full comprehension of whilst sitting your driving test. You should stick to the law rigidly!!!

I see people worrying. Laws are passed not only for your own protection - but to protect others from YOU! MOT - cars MUST meet a strict guideline so that they are fit to be roadworthy. Would hate to be crippled by someone who has bald tyres. Insurance - necessary to pay and cover any damages you may cause/injuries you or others may sustain. Road tax - to use the roads, you need to pay for roads. Seems fair. Speed limit - to prevent dangerous, reckless driving. Lowering fatal accidents as much as possible. Its a fact of truth that the faster the vehicle in collision = higher death rate. Not everyone has ninja reactions like me , and i would like to know that those who don't aren't driving at 120mph because they can! Whilst we are on about it - if the legal driving limit is 70mph - why do we sell cars that can reach 190mph? Its illegal to do so, and it should be stopped. They should be limited to 100mph max. Would reduce some issues around already!!

In all honesty, if you stuck by the law, you shouldn't fall foul of it. Its that simple (from my perspective). I can understand the idea of 'I made a mistake' - sure, we all do. You will pay depending upon the mistake - if its going too fast - its 30quid, not wearing a seatbelt? - £30 (or your life....or more importantly, someone elses as you fly through the windscreen into THEIR car!), jumping lights? £30 - your not allowed to, its incredibly dangerous!!!!, if its killing someone - its 20 years........sorry, 5 years with sky tv. When i was a kid - i learnt what i could an couldn't do in society by the amount of pain it caused. I couldn't hit my sister with a big stick because I got pain in return. IF i speed, i would only have myself to blame if i got a ticket. I really doubt i would end up on the 'watch' list by that! Maybe if i did a hit and run whilst fueled high on heroin and cocaine, but not for jumping a light.

I can understand some concerns - but as always i think your blowing issues out of the water. I don't know why you worry anyway - all they will do is fit you with a dog tag for the week and then you will be free anyway!

Maybe we need some fear of being caught IF we break the law. My landlord is Islamic - and we were talking about law and order in this country (or lack of it after hearing about firework attacks). In his country they chop the hands off of theives. Sounds barbaric - but as he pointed out - you could leave your keys, wallet and belongings in your car overnight, and it would be there in the morning. Then penalty was far worse than the gains! So next to no theives. The only crims they really had were the 2 million westerners living in the country, the fear for them was that if they break a law.........they got deported!

Sounds harsh..........but it WORKS!

Edited by - Chips on 10/16/2004 12:18:48 PM

Edited by - Chips on 10/16/2004 12:24:25 PM

i happen to be a great admirer of Shariat law. your comparison with that and electronic bugging of the body/car/home etc doesnt stand up. chalk and cheese.

you're stil going on about lawbreakers, Chips, but laws are plastic. they aren't permanent, they can be whatever the govt in power at the time wants them to be. whats helpful legisialtion today is intrusive and interfering tomorow. of course theyre dressed up as anti-crime, keeping us safer - do you think any modern govt is going to turn round and fess up that theyre instituting a police state? but thats what's being created. the Police now have more power than they've had for decades, and thats not a good thing - theyre getting away with (literally) murder. Technology allows them intrue into almost every aspect of our lives, and that's bad. They are virtually without restraint now. and the speed camera fines are indeed a stealth tax; where do you think the money goes? improving the road system? no.

guess we'll be on different sides when the revolution starts then! don't worry I'll look after you

and btw "The only crims they really had were the 2 million westerners living in the country" which comes as no surprise. the Islamic countries are generally far more moral than the decadent West.

Edited by - Tawakalna on 10/16/2004 12:32:37 PM

They aren't getting away with 'literally' murder at all - thats a sweeping statement with no backup, evidence or proof.......and greatly unfair. They have more red tape, more rules/regs/training, more proceedures and departments than ever before. They have their hands tied behind their backs.........and speed camera fines should help fund the police! If they do anything wrong, its investigated. In years of old - no-one filed complaints against police, and if they did - generally they were unsucessful. Now - they are investigated as if guilty, have to watch what they say, remain respectful of rights/religions and everything else!
Granted - you may have had a bad experience with the police - on several occasions..........but can you say you would look on now with an unbiased eye? Can you judge them correctly across the whole country without an influence from past experiences? (based on perhaps having had some nasty police experiences).

They pick up the dregs and failures of society - whilst remaining mere humans and honest fearing people. People are more than ready to jump and lynch one bad egg in a whole police force, tarnish every police officer with the same brush without any grounds, and treat them like dog crap on the soles of our shoes - yet in return we expect them to show the peak of morality, patience, virtue and everything else that we expect. That sound even remotely fair?

Simply put - for 'inequality' - you probabily wouldn't think twice of yelling something at the police - be it 'pig' or a swearing insult. Now imagine you were called that by them - and you would probabily feel as angry as hell.
The whole country has double standards, we are supposed to be able to do what we want, regardless of anyone else.............yet if a policeman intentionally did that there would be hell to pay. I have heard death threats shouted at police and worse - people trying to run over them. Tell me that IF you were the victim on the receiving end that you would not be mad at the perp? I have seen it alot - an still the police were calm, polite, and treated the man fairly (they didn't even batton him). I couldn't do that.

I trust police - i do not trust society. I respect the police for what they try to do - i have no respect for most of society. I deal with public everyday, and everyday i am more and more sick of this country. The police have a losing battle on their hands, they are villified at every opportunity.

Remove the police for one week i say, and seeing the arm of the law would be a welcome return.

They are humans and fallable - but they all try their best. Remember - they are recruited from the general population...........we cannot make perfect humans, otherwise we would have a perfect society/police force.

Likewise - I would have no problem with myself being chipped - it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference with my life. I have never been arrested, received a parking ticket, been cautioned or anything else at all. I pay my bills on time, and are honest. I fail to see how it would be a detrimental affect on my lifestyle whatsoever - which is why i am not opposed to it!

Edited by - Chips on 10/16/2004 2:11:02 PM