@Rec I dont think I did. you honor those on the beaches and in general those who gave all so we can be free. I could care if you liked the ceremonies or not thats personal taste

if Im wrong lemme know and I will fix post haste

It is indeed an event to remember, but just one of many. However, I think we should try and get rid of biased opinions here. I'm also inclined to honor the fallen Axis soldiers who were just sent there and tried to defend themselves the best way they could. I do not believe that soldiers, Allied of Germans, thought about high ideals when fighting - they just tried to survive. Also, we should honor civilians killed during Allied bombings in Normandy. BTW, last night on National Geographic (or was it Discovery?) they showed interviews with a British, and American, and a German veterans. It was really moving when all three of them met on the beach of the past battle and shook hands.

An idea came to my head and is now desperately searching for brain

Amen, Indy! Wars occur because all those dumbass leaders who ignite them never fight themselves.

An idea came to my head and is now desperately searching for brain

War is also about something. Someone wants land, power, possessions, ect from someone else. If that could be eleminated, the reasons for war are greatly reduced. Anger has also played a part in wars. The best idea for a war was given years ago. Let the 2 leaders fight. Let them settle it, that way no one dies.

There should be a day honouring the far greater Soviet contribution to the war. The only thing I had of Russia during the TV coverage was "Of course, Stalin didn't tell his people that the trucks his men were using were American and his planes were using American aluminium.". Indeed, how stupid I must have been to ever think a country could contribute to a war and deserve gratitude without having aluminium reserves!

DUCK!

Could someone delete the spam/rant/flames and sticky close this. Or not, but at least let's not argue about anything. It's our freedom, what is there to argue about?

I'm a Dutchy myself and I can tell you, although I've never experianced anything close to war and I hope I never will, I do respect all those who fought in WWII trying to free themselfes or people they didn't know.
D-day is concidered a turning point in the war, wether it was or not. But the entire period from the years before the war when Jews were already oppressed (remember Kristalnacht?) untill the last shot was fired is to be remembered. Not just the liberation. People fought through out the entire war.
The reason why days like this are being remembered is because people want to give it a place in their hearts. So let them and be quiet if you disagree.

Sometimes I wonder if people actually understand what they see when they watch Saving Private Ryan or Band of Brothers (re-run on Dutch TV Sunday's very late at SBS6). It's not the special effects and the amount of money spend/made with it, it's to be remembered.

That's one of the reasons I don't realy apreciate the WWII games that are so popular lately, or any other war games based on true events. It doesn't seem right somehow.
Try to imagine what it is like to be living in, say Kosovo or Iraque and knowing people will play games about the war you are trying to forget...

There's a saying going around in Holland at the moment: You can get a child (person) out of the war, but can you get the war out of the child?
That's exactly what these days are all about, for those people to cope with the memories and for the rest to give them something to think about.
To bad these days are also used for some peoples election campaigns.

So once again *salutes*

There was a big ordeal made over the 50th anniversary, and the reason there is another over the 60th is that, as they said, a raw recruit for d-day is now pushing 80 at the moment, and the chances of enough veterans being alive to see any more aniversaries in the future is next to none!. At best, in ten years, there will be a mere handful of D-Day, indeed, WWII vets left.

The reason for heads of state, and others to be there is simple. They are representing their countries as a whole. They say a few words, because otherwise just turning up and leaving would seem worse than seeming not to care, which is EXACTLY what everyone would be moaning about IF THEY DIDN'T do it. They aren't there for personal reasons, although they may be, they are mainly there as a duty to the country - to represent the grateful people, who cannot go over there.

Furthermore, it boosts media coverage alot as well - but this is only a side effect of them being there. They would be there EVEN if there were no press. However, without the press, how would the young actually see what happened. As people point out, some don't even know what its about.......so does that mean we should leave them in ignorance, or tell them/let them know through this? Mass media coverage is so that the nation can learn more about what happened, what sacrifices were made. I learnt alot more than i already knew about D-day yesterday. I could have learnt it at any time, but bringing it to my attention once more, and firing my enthusiasm/will to know more got me reading alot of little details you would otherwise not have known.

Reason for actors? Unknown, but it will increase young peoples interest in finding out what its all about if there fav pop idol was there to say something about it, as some kids really will only notice at that point. I didn't see/hear about any actors or other people being there though - so i cannot really comment about it anyway.


Now enough about what politics poeple think this is all about, i personally find it a bit strange that you think the vets should sit in silence only, and not be shown that we care whist their last years are spent fading away from our memories. For too long those men have been the quiet heroes of our shore (as they say), but never a fuss was made over them. Is it so bad that before they all finally die, they see that the country, even the WORLD cares - and recognises the sacrifices that were made for them? That they have a massive outpouring of gratitude, that people show that watching their friends being blown to pieces was not only worth it, but that we are aware of what they underwent to bring us our freedom? So they talk to old veterans on the shore, ask them what it was like. I am sorry that some are so cynical as to think this is only to show "caring" - because i personally think you guys are being terribly dumb. I would have NO FLIPPING CLUE as to what they saw/heard/endured....and cannot imagine the fear, the pain, and the rest of it WITHOUT hearing it from the people who tell it the best - the people who were there. First hand accounts about their individual parts also showed the diverse range of jobs that were involved - not all just soldiers, but the many others. Heck - it also puts them in the limelight - they are suddenly important again.....they get to tell their story - which we all love to do. It probabily makes them feel great. Imagine having the Queen thanking you for your actions, whilst pouring on praise of your fallen friends - that would make me want to burst with pride for my country............but i forget, you guys don't think we should do this at all huh?

Yes it is a big media event, but if it wasn't, i would never have found out about a couple of individuals heroic deeds at all. Is it so bad that i now know a few more details to what happened? Maybe a few names?
Yes, we could have all read history books if interested, but UNLESS you have someone to fire the interest, or generate the enthusiasm to learn, NO-ONE will do it. The one thing i can say is that out of all the children watching, SOME of those kids are going to go back to school. They are going to ask their history teacher what D-Day was all about. Those children are going to learn what D-Day was about, what happened, why the war was fought - and then they will remember, and be proud/respect the ederly and the frail perhaps just that little bit more.

Simply put, i cannot believe that so many people would rather this was just a hushed up affair, kept quite for "dignity" reasons, or more likely, just because you think its ONLY done for heads of state/famous people to gain more noteriaty. The fact that all you can think about is policital motivations is poor. I will not deny that there are some politics involved, but at what cost? Did it really overshadow the event? I just heard them all thanking the nations, and barely a reference was made to todays troubles. Considering the climate, the situation, and other things involved, they could have made ALOT more political if they wanted, and by alot - i mean ALOT .


So please, stop the cynical posts about how much you detest this charrade of public outpouring, as I for one learnt alot more about what they did/went through, and gained even MORE respect for the veterans that are left, then i had before. Tell me that if the rest of the country takes away from that what i have, tell me that its a bad thing once more?????

I've just read the rest of the thread after what i posted and i'm disgusted at how it has degenerated primarily due to the respectfullness of heltak and others. Well my grandfather was in a reserved occupation during the war so he was not called up, he worked in a shipyard on clydeside in an area which was under constant bombardment yet he and his colleagues continued their work. They built warships for the RN including a cruiser, destroyers and motor torpedo boats.
He died two years ago but he did tell me the stories of how they had to rush to the Anderson shelters when the bombs came and how some of his colleagues died before they could make it. My cousin was in action in the iraq war on-board HMS Ocean she was a RN nurse who served the commando detachment that were on-board at the time so my family are no strangers to conflict. I conclude by saluting the people who died so that we could be free.

There would have been references to todays relationships between the countries since the age of the war EVEN if there had been no 9/11 or Iraq war. They cannot simply comment upon how well we all worked together in our time of need once, without saying that we do now.

However, the remarks as to politics have been made by many individuals again, and again, and again. Enough is enough, any more bits about it being politically motivated, or cat scratching about governments, and the thread will get locked.

The one thing i will say is that IF the thread gets locked, it will be a tragic shame that a community has to pile policital meaning on everything, and post points of view about what the motivations were about. True, politics IS linked with nearly everything in the world, BUT - it only comes to the front when YOU make it.

About the day
We saw it, and understand what was said, and therefore draw our own conclusions. Mine were as i say above, obviously others have other views about it all, but above all:-

Bringing it down to politics when its about the war veterans and the lost lives, simply shows that we are no better than those politicians that you all despise so much.

In a thread soley made to say a thanks to survivors, although relatively minor and inconsequential in its way compared to the worlds efforts around us, the thread has been brought down to the level that you are posting about despising.

In one way, although a lot lesser, you are doing what those heads of state that you castrate so much "did" in your eye....leaving the true meaning to score political points. Does that make you better than them? or can you be so vicious about your own lack of decency in the thread......like you are about them (politicans) in their deeds?

please - no more posts about this stuff. I don't want to lock the thread, but then again, shamefully, part of me wants to delete all but the first post, as its a shameful blight on the forum that we cannot even have a thread which was intended to SHOW OUR GRATITUDE about D-Day. I don't quite know HOW we got from saying thankyou to the fallen and surviving men to this post, but I do totally regret it.
I got caught up in arguing as well, when i should have merely deleted the comments instead. I guess i thought i could talk sense into people, but i was wrong.

Fair enough.

Deleted my posts. Don't necessarily agree with you Chips but I respect your point of view.

Edited by - Indy11 on 6/7/2004 11:53:06 AM

I may have gotten a little hot at Heltak for his comments, and I deeply apologize. I don't lose my cool very often. And I would like to apologize to everyone. More so, I want to apologize to Heltak. He had his comments and he had every right to say them. I shouldn't have been so hostile about his comments. June 6, 1944 was a very important day for the entire world. And I still feel that it was one of the greatest turning points in history. For those who were offended about me and Heltak squabbling over different points of view, I really am sorry.

"Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows."

I dont wanna piss anyone off, i dont want to sully the heroic sacrafices the troops made 60 years ago, or turn this into a thread about politics or rant on about "my coutnry fought better in the war than yours".

As is the nature of online conversations, ideas, opinions and beliefs are going to be aired. Restricting these, although the forum has rules about political talk, is shocking. I dont think there's anyone here who actively doesnt want to remember those that have died. The discussions were of how the media got its claws into these events and ran with them. We're looking at the motives and the mentality of the 60th anniverary more than the men themselves.




"If i told you a secret you wont tell a soul,
will you hold it and keep it alive"

Yep, I believe every single word you say, Taw.

Wisdom comes with age. But sometimes age comes alone...

Have any of you been to the American Graveyard for WW2? Its enought to make you cry there is so many, I would recommend anyone going if they want to understand what 'mass loss of life' means.


My second point is that you have to give the men who fought credit for what they have done, if D-Day hadden't come then we would all be speaking German and hailing the Furhur (Hitler).
And I think it is wrong how your saying that the loss of life was the commanders faults, 1940's were hell loads different from today and technology to bomb defenses involved pressing a button and praying it would hit. The command was brillient and Churchill was expecting 20,000 dead by morning but instead only 3,000 died and 6,000 were wounded. The real death numbers came later from counter attacks and actually taking Berlin defended by the SS.

It is actually important to note that the fate of the world and Hitlers empire remains in that he attacked the Russians before the British. With all the tanks and men he had, he could take out Britian easily and move back to take Russia in the Summer when the men would not freeze. The Russians lost 25 million soldiers before D-Day had started.
And as another note, (sorry for going on and on and on) did you know that Churchill wanted to take out the Soviet war machine before communisim started but the American President diudn't want to? This would have avoided the cold war and no Red Alert 2 and stuff (so may be "not" was a good idea ).

*saluts the men of D-Day and the Russians*

Edited by - BlazeME on 6/9/2004 2:59:46 AM