Yes Virginia, There Really Was a(n) Homeric Troy

Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:41 am by Tawakalna

it's also the place where Hannibal (Carthaginian general with elephants, not Lecter the Cannibal) was buried. tbh there really isn't much to see, last time I went there was talk of a proper visitors centre, maybe the Turks will have got one by now, that was like 17yrs ago.

Co-incidentally the film has started another round of what belongs to who(m) The Turkish govt is currently "lobbying" ie moaning their bags off at the Russian govt for the return of Schliemann's treasures, that the Rooskies looted from Germany in 1945 as spoils of war, then denied they had them for almost 50yrs, while the Turks have p[ossession of the site and therefore a claim to everything that may or has been found there. Germany is also claiming them saying that they are legitimately theirs because a German found them. The Greek govt wants them as they are from a purely Greek culture and historical background, in the Bronze Age the ancestors of the Turks were living in central Asia.

While in principle I'd like to see them go back to their place of origin, I'm afraid the Turks have a really bad track record of looking after antiquities. You can wander around Turkey and just pick up bits of statuary etc from the roadside or aout of fileds and no-one cares (except when you get to the airport, and there's ways round that too

)

Mind you, we've really got no moral high ground over this in Britain, seeing as we've got a huge proportion of the ancient world shoved away in the British Museum that we looted at gunpoint or ripped some farmer off for. Elgin Marbles anyone?

Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:00 am by Indy11

Now that you mention them. When I saws the Elgin Marbles at the BM, I almost cried. You can see the striation marks from the "cleaning" that was done when they got to England. The stark beauty of the white stone, of course, is breath taking but to think that they actually dulled the finish by scraping off what they thought was filth is, well, appalling to imagine.

One thing to consider is that things now are located where they are so those who are in possession have a responsibility:

1) Either to make sure that they are readily accessible to the general public with excellent explanation of history of origin and true and accurate context of acquisition, or,

2) If not to be displayed, returned to the land of origin.

The only time 2) shouldn't apply if it is known that the government and or peopel of the land of origin are prone, for some reason, to be hostile to such artifacts (i.e. Taliban and the Bamiyan statuary).

Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:45 am by Tawakalna

wasn't that actually an accident? weren't they using them for storing exposive and the stuff just went off? hmm gonna have to check that one out..

I agree with you, the current owners of world historical treasures do have an obligation, I feel, to display their loot in some sort of context. this the BM does not do. Even their purpose built display shows the Elgin Marbles inside out and the wrong way round, because these were never intended to be seen like this; rather they were high up on the inside of the Parthenon, and as you rightly point out, brightly coloured

so much for the popular Western image of crisp stark classicism...

In an Olympic year, it would do the British govt some good to give these back to the Greeks; hardly anyone who goes to visit them would know the difference between the originals and well made casts anyway, and the current British govt did actually promise to give them back, when they were in opposition. It's not like we acquired them fair and square, Lord Elgin conned a farmer out of them for a few drachmae, they were lying in his fields after a Genoese cannonball blew up the Parthenon (then Turkish) (or was it a Turkish cannonball and a Genoese Parthenon, oh I dunno)

Mon Apr 12, 2004 11:02 am by Indy11

Regarding the "Scandal" of the cleaning of the Elgin Marbles, happened in the 1930s, no less.

I cannot help but think that there was a touch of cultural chauvinism involved

They used steel wool!

Edited by - Indy11 on 4/12/2004 12:04:02 PM

Mon Apr 12, 2004 11:56 am by Tawakalna

hmmm. Typical bureaucratic response in that linky, Ed. The BM will never let them go, which is shameful and wrong imho.

Mind you, classical art's been the subject of "cultural chauvinism for centuries. Even back in classical times, the Romans were nicking stuff and chopping it up and using the bits for various late and pretty cr*p things of their own, like the Arch of Constantine in Rome, and the Pillar of Apollo (Constantine) in Constantinople (Istanbul) then in the Middle Ages, they had their winkies chopped off by zealous Christians wanting to cover up the pagan filth. And since Renaissance times its been common coin that classical marble is white white white, except it isn't. Wicked attitudes; and in the 1930s they really should have known better.

Mon Apr 12, 2004 4:35 pm by Indy11

Yeah. For all of that, the display could be better.

BTW, I thought the marbles were the friezes on the exterior of the Parthenon, not the interior.

Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:11 pm by RILMS

Ah the battle of Troy...so much fun. One of my fave stories. I can't wait for the movie.

Life: No one gets out alive.

Mon Apr 12, 2004 11:20 pm by Esquilax

The movie? Yeah, I'm sure that is will be REALLY accurate

.

Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:23 am by Tawakalna

2 sets of friezes, one from the entablature on the pediment, and the others (the bulk) from the interior peristyle. Put them in context, they would have been brightly coloured to be illuminated by the torches from the golden statue of Athena, itself hidden behind damsk-like curtains; in the dark interior, illuminated by glowing flickering light, with colours subtly changing across the walls highlighting scenes from history and myth that were on eye-level with the Goddess' statue, that would be the right mood for supplicating Athena for her wisdom and favour.

edited for cr*p typing

Edited by - Tawakalna on 4/13/2004 1:35:31 AM

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