actually the priests of Zoroaster (and Mithra by extension) were organised into a very strict hierarchy with initiation rites between each rank, Magi being one. The magic they practiced was actually astronomy/astrology and divination but they got slurred with the magician thing as a resulk of Roman propaganda and mistranslation. There was a strong mystical & philosophical strain and like many religions of the time (including Christianity) there was mystery and revelation that could only be experienced by the initiated.

I knew it! It's good to know that hanging out here in TLR land is not eroding my general knowledge, in fact, it's doing the opposite! Two for the price of one, eh?

Edit: Weren't those Mithran types worshipping some sort of "evil" spirit? Ie. the antisthesis of the Zoroastrians? Called Andra Mainyu if I'm not mistaken? Maybe that's more Roman propaganda.

Esquilax

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Edited by - esquilax on 1/8/2004 2:33:27 AM

no no the worship of Mithras is the worship of the light; the dark one Andra Mainyu (Ahriman) is the enemy of Mithras and with whom he contends eternally, until Ormuzd brings an end to all things. Mithraism is a noble and just faith that champions truth and honesty and loyalty, strength and honour. That's why it was so popular in the Roman Army. it's Christian propaganda of the period that denigrates Mithraism, after all it was it's main challenger even after the Empire became officially Christian. Constantine personally was a Mithraist, his adoption of Christianity was a political and strategic move, evnetually because he went nuts he got the two hopelessly mixed up and thats part of the reason so much Christian imagery harks back to Mithras, the other part being Christian syncretism and absorption of other cults.

However Mithraism was very much a cult of the elite and you had to have a decent income to be able to afford the necessary duties and sacrifices, whereas Christianity was very much a religion of the poor and dispossessed. Plus Christianity proselytised, Mithraism didn't.

Edited by - Tawakalna on 1/8/2004 6:45:36 AM

@D_R:

Those Maori deities don't "sound" like and don't "look" like the Hawaiian ones but they somehow seem to be alike. Makes some sense that they would tend to point to each other as they are both polynesian cultures I suppose but there was so much water between them and the relative times of settlement are different.... I think.

Maori__________________________________Suspected Hawaiian Counterparts:

Io or (Iomatua)__________________________Kane - Creator god
Ranginui is the sky_______________________Kane
Papatuanuku, the earth.___________________Pele*, goddess of the Volcano
Tawhirimatea, god of winds________________Laamaomao
Tane, god of forests,
Tangaroa, god of the seas__________________Kanaloa
Rongomatane, god of the cultivated crops,
Haumira, god of fernroot and wild herbs and berries,
Tumatauenga, god of war and precursor of man________Keoahikamakaua** ,
Ruaumoko god of earthquakes and volcanoes__________Pele*

*In Hawaii, Pele holds a specially high rank. I suppose, given that the connection between volcanos and island building is even more obvious in Hawaii (because of the small land sizes involved and the constant physical evidence of it) than in New Zealand, volcanoes would figure more prominently.

**Keoahikamakaua actually is the child of War. The War God, Ku also is the God of Architechture. However, Keoahikamakaua has more characteristics that make him similar to being the precursor of man.

I know little tit-bits about Zulu mythology. Stuff like the tokoloshi which are kinda like wierd unusually well-endowed hairy creatures of about ankle-height. Supposedly witches and wizards use them to do their bidding and they come into your bedroom at night and whisper in your ear to make you do evil things. It's also used to explain strange goings on in the home and the imaginary friends that children keep. Of course the sangomas (witch-doctors) love to perpetuate the myth to maintain their business so in some areas the belief in it is still very real.
There's also some stuff about unWaba a chameleon god thing which was supposed to deliver humans immortality but was too slow and too late to do so. For some reason this ties in with the superstition and fear of chameleons that some people hold. To be honest I'm always getting confused by it, it's just bits n pieces my dad told me.

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I am the signature virus! Copy me into your signature so that I can take over the world! Moohahahee!

@Indy

I would expect that the Maori gods and tha Hawaiian gods
you mentioned are probaly the same, as the predecessors
of the Hawaiians and the Maori were the same people, but
the cultures had changed over the thousands of years they
have been apart. Upon the discovery of NZ the Maori would
have, um, added some more gods

Thanks for that Taw. At least I was partially correct.

In my experience, Greek mythology remains very popular. What is it about Greek myths that makes them so accessible to the mainstream? Perhaps it is their simplicity and common usage in modern media. What do you think?

Esquilax

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Edited by - esquilax on 1/8/2004 4:47:08 PM

well i think the reason is that they never really left us. The functions of the various gods and heroes were absorbed into Christianity by the Catholic Church and its array of saints, & the basic morality tales at the heart of greek myth were never anathema to Christianity anyway, even if the charcters and situations were. this remained so throughout the Middle Ages because the Church could not separate itself from its Graeco-Roman roots. then with the Renaissance it was all brought to life again as material for art and literature and philosophy, myths that ahd been forgotten or censored were brought back from the collapsing Byzantine Empire and even the Arab world, and thus they've remained as archetypes for Western culture, right to the present day. Classical influence is all around us, the architecture of Greece and Rome is the model for most societies wishing to express authority, probity, order, we still almost all use classical imagery on our currencies, all western liberal thinking is based squarely on greek philosophy, and the myths and legends have never lost their appeal because they have been common coin for so many years. every kid knows the basics of the story of the Trojan horse even if they haven't got a clue where Troy is. A good story never loses its appeal and their good stories because even the gods are "human" if you get my drift

True. Besides, you don't see modern day gods shifting forms and seducing women, do you? That Zeus knew how to have a good time! Too bad there's so much religious intolerance around these days. Back in the days of yore if you didn't like some guy's religion, you just stabbed him and took his farm (and his wife). Ah, the good old days are gone forever...

Edit: Thanks for the title, Mustang. I kept meaning to say that, but I kept forgetting (It's been a hard week).

Esquilax

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Edited by - esquilax on 1/8/2004 8:33:46 PM

gotta like Hermes

What do you mean? Hermes from Futurama?

Esquilax

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And now for something completely different...

Hermes. Some greek weirdo with winged shoes... I think.
Anyone know about the Australian Aboriginal mythology? It's really cool. They worship some kind of Unprouncable Group Of Ancient Gods(TM).
They're kick-ass. They look like a cross between the Grim Reaper and ET.
I know next to nothing about them,though, other than the fact that they can change the weather.
PS. While it may seem like I'm some kind of twisted maniac going on forums at 3 in the morning to discuss Australian mythology, it's actually bacause I'm in a different timeline. In reality it's only 2 in the morning over here. lol

"Dragons. They don't scare me.
Insectivores, aren't they...?"
The Soddit

@taw, yeah, i think i'll stick to future mythologies, ie. astronomy.
@esquilax, no thanks, i'm an atheist

Corsair01 wrote "They worship some kind of Unprouncable Group Of Ancient Gods(TM).."

you wouldn't mean Nyarlathotep, Dagon, Hastur, and Cthulhu, would you?