@RILMS

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Tick....if I understand correctly...An woman who dosn't respect herself is one that has the morals of a man?

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Sort of, the way it has been for ages (not saying it was right or wrong) is that women had only marriage to look forward to as a way to be better off. Thus they had to expect a lot of themselves to get a man they could expect a lot from.

Today with fewer expectations of themselves and the men they are with, both men and women are worse off because men don't expect more of themselves because they don't have to. And women get less from their men because of it and vice versa.

I said "expect" a lot, but it's the best word I could use.

Sir Spectre

@ esquilax, sorry to bring religion into it, but in the bible, god made eve out of one of adams ribs, so there you have why woman used to mean of man

It is better to aim for the stars and hit the tops of the trees than to aim for nothing and hit it dead on.

I think I understand....

We are still socialy taught that women are to pretect there bodys from the evils of men.

But that gives men the social correctness to be with multable women and limites women to only one male.

Boys will be boys and all that nonsence. It's all about equality. Women acting like men.

It's there right to seek that form of pleasure just as much as men are. And unutill recently, they havn't been allowed that chance.

When I think about permuicus women, I do get a knot in my stomach, but thats only because I've been social trained against it, but I'm trying to fight it.

We've become a sex based socity. I, personly don't like that, and would prefer to live in the Victorian Age.

Life: No one gets out alive.

@RILMS

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We are still socialy taught that women are to pretect there bodys from the evils of men.

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I'd say desires of men. And it's not just their bodies, it's that wonderful belief in love that girls have when they are young. They dream of love and hope it will happen to them. It is such a fragile part of a person, girl or boy, yet it can be so easily destroyed. In replace, only the remains of that careless treatment of them that disturbed a faith in love that once was beautiful and wonderful beyond all physical measure.

Without getting into a full debate I will say this. It is a great feeling to expect a lot of person and know they will better themselves to live up to those expectations and in return expect a lot of you so that you better yourself to make sure you don't disappoint them. I think we're getting too use to being disappointed and settling for less than we once wanted.

I don't think all men have been as permiscuous as they are today, there were always more than women, but they use to live to a higher standard as well. Men having been given carte blanche in todays times because women are taking more agressive actions in the field.

A recent study says people are not only divorcing more, but getting married later in life because they don't have to marry someone to get all the benefits. As soon as I said that, I remember you describing one of your friends as a "friend with benefits." Does that situation leave you with a need for love or is it satisfying enough that you can simply have fun longer? I won't get into that any further.

Some people think of olden times as arranged marriages or complete male dominance over his wife, it wasn't all like that. Love is not a new concept, but it is becoming one we are not expecting from those we bed. And there lies the problem. That is my opinion.

Sir Spectre

Edited by - Sir Spectre on 10-12-2003 17:48:43

sS said, it's that wonderful belief in love that girls have when they are young. They dream of love and hope it will happen to them.

well it's certainly what they are conditioned to expect at a relatively early age. There are whole industries based upon this naive expectation and it is reinforced massively by the teen/celebrity media, and has been for years.

And as regards marriage for social/financial security, this is still the case for many poor people; after all, what else is there for some girl on a council estate, up the stick at 14/15 with nothing but the dole and the local skag dealers to fall back on?

edit for transliteral clarity - by poor I mean financially-challenged, not poor as in wretched, although there is that inference. Council estate=municipal housing, dole=welfare, as it's known over the water, up the stick=pregnant, and skag=heroin. sorry, I keep using British idioms, which I appreciate are often confusing for non-Brits

Edited by - Tawakalna on 10-12-2003 17:58:56

@Taw, well I think that belief is more prevalent than just some Magazine sponsored craze, in fact I think the Mags hurt the faith in love. However, it's not all conditioning, some never have that faith and that is unfortunate.

As for the financial security. We live in a world where that opportunity to seek out love in any social class or area of world is at the greatest and still be secure enough to live a good life. Yet with our breadth of possibility for stability and happiness it is being squandered for the most part.

BTW, the only Br*t idiom I didn't get was "skag" otherwise I had heard or figured the rest out.

Sir Spectre

@SS,

My friend with benefits situation did leave me with a need for love. It was a temperation solution for a long term problem.

And currently she and I are not seeing each other, I have interests in other women.

I would agree with the study. My parents are divorced.

but just because people are getting married later in life or divorcing just means that socity is changeing.

maybe that instituation isn't as needed anymore. Maybe we've grown out of it. Not all triditions last.

And love isn't a requirement for those we bed. Not anymore.

It is now more of a physical enjoyment activity and not an act of love.

As for disapointment, we want to achieve what we can not have. We set ourselves up for it.

@Taw,

Agreed, there are industries that make tons of toy dolls for girls to play with. Because little girls are still taught to grow up, get married, and have children. Little boys are taught nothing about marrage....except if they play house.

Brian’s Philosophies Number 121: Innocence lost is experience gained.

Life: No one gets out alive.



Edited by - RILMS on 10-12-2003 18:17:28

the point I'm making is that that opportunity doesn't exist for an awful lot of people, or if it does it's perceived as being impractical or unattainable, because they are bound by their circumstances and conditioning from an early age. Poverty grinds these dreams out of you to the point where even the things you CAN do with a bit of effort seem pointless. Many women still marry simply for a measure of financial stability that they otherwise wouldn't possess and that is the limit of their ambitions, I have seen it many many times. Years ago when I was training to be a teacher (indeed!) I believed that it was possible to broaden horizons and show people the possibilities available to them both educationally and personally, but time has taught me that for the majority, it's better to leave them as they are. A lot of girls from poor families will do nothing better with their lives than leave school at 16, marry a dull bloke with a regular wage, have a couple of kids, get a part-time dead-end job somewhere, and that's it; that's all they want out of life, and they're quite happy with that!

@Taw,

Not everyone wants to be independant. As you said, some girls just want to get married and have kids.

Everyone has there own wants and needs, and it is not for anyone to say that there needs are good or bad.

Life: No one gets out alive.

@RILMS

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My friend with benefits situation did leave me with a need for love. It was a temperation solution for a long term problem.

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It's the "temporary" part I was referring to. I didn't say you would give up on love, but that it would be pushed back for later.

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but just because people are getting married later in life or divorcing just means that socity is changeing.

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I can point to any number of statistics on what's up and what's down with respect to this issue. Teen pregnancy, average age of marriage, number of divorces, children born out of wedlock et cetera.

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maybe that instituation isn't as needed anymore. Maybe we've grown out of it. Not all triditions last.

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I am from a single parent home, and I can tell you this, there is much that I missed by not having two parents, at least your parents divorced later in your life. The "institution" is to provide the next generation with all the necessary stability to be good people in the world. The world is only as good as the people that make it up and families, for the most part, promote better people.

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And love isn't a requirement for those we bed. Not anymore.

It is now more of a physical enjoyment activity and not an act of love.

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And in that selfishness what do we do to others? Whether it be others we know or others to come after us or because of us? Everyone's actions affect more people than they know, if no one takes responsibility for anything I would be appalled by the state we as a species would be in.

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Agreed, there are industries that make tons of toy dolls for girls to play with. Because little girls are still taught to grow up, get married, and have children. Little boys are taught nothing about marrage....except if they play house.

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Less than you think is conditioning. I hear when all these tests and statistics come up, because I listen to the news everyday of the week. There were studies of boys playing with dolls and girls playing with trucks. Even after a year of being forced to play with alternate toys, when their appropriate gender specific toys were presented to each sex, the tots overwhelming enjoyed their more gender specific toys better. Same thing with colours and activities. Pink for girls and blue for boys wasn't just an accident or just conditioning. Girls and boys are actually different!

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Innocence lost is experience gained.

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But that doesn't address the benefit or harm of experience. Not all experience is good or better for a person. I don't have to experience a shark bite to know I don't want to that to happen.

@Taw, with this I agree with RILMS (who woulda thunk it! ) everybody is hindered by perceptions. But I come from a position of wanting to change the perception so that we can expect and get love.

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A lot of girls from poor families will do nothing better with their lives than leave school at 16, marry a dull bloke with a regular wage, have a couple of kids, get a part-time dead-end job somewhere, and that's it; that's all they want out of life, and they're quite happy with that!

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And that is a perception of yours. Just because you think he may be dull, doesn't mean she thinks so. The stress level may be greater, but maybe that makes them appreciate each other more. Who is to say, except for them? I speak of a hope for what all people can achieve and a worry that more are not even trying to get it anymore.

Signed,

A disagreeing friend

Sir Spectre

Edited by - Sir Spectre on 10-12-2003 19:00:22

@SS,

I didn't mean that having only one parent is not diffrent then have two. I know that haveing both a father and a mother is the best thing a child can have when tehy grow up.

I just ment that maybe we don't need to formalize it. Maybe common law is what we're moving towards nowadays. We don't feel the need of the ceremony of handing off a daughter from her father to her husbind.

As my mother tells me, "we are not an island, our actions affect others". And, unfortunaly, it's true. A purly physical enjoyment with out emotional concequences is rairly acheved. But we try anyway. Not saying it's a good thing, but it's a fact.

Did you know that before the turn of the century, as in before 1900, pink was a male colour and blue was a female colour. After 1900 they switched it. Not sure why however.

And yes, boys are girls are diffrent. Expecialy after they hit purbity. I read in interview with a transexual who still had her penis. When she takes estrogen, she wants to find a mate, settle down and have kids. When she is influenced by her natural testostrogen, she wants to be in bed with partners all the time and jump from bed to bed.

I tend to think that all experance is good as it shapes us and lets us grow. If all we had was good experances, it would be rather boring.

You agree with me??? *dies of shock*

Life: No one gets out alive.

in the sense that, yes, for a lot of young people sex is a pleasure to be enjoyed just as, and indeed with, drinking, smoking, drugs etc, that i agree with. The hordes of Club 18-30 English louts and harridans who descend on Ibiza, Faliraki, Kardamena etc. every summer is proof of this; almost all looking for quick and easy sex, cheap drink, and a good punch-up. It's horrific and appalls me, but it is the way things are now, and has been for some time. I dread to think that in a only a few years, my daughter will be old enough to join in with this dreadful pseudo-hedonism and I will be unable to stop her.

Having said all that, i wasn't that much different at age 18+ but when I look back on some of the appalling things I've done, or been involved with, and the way I've treated people especially women when I was younger, I am filled with regret.

@Sns

Actually, I think Taw is right about the general condition he is referring to were a woman to choose to marry a dull bloke.

I think too many of us are conditioned to believe that things cannot be so bad that a woman, for example, would just marry any half way decent man with a job to avoid the grinding misery of being on the dole.

But novels are written with this exact theme, sometimes with a happy ending, other times not. I think that it this type of unfortunately cynical equation is a fundamental human truth.

Maybe not all women in council flats think this way but I would hazard a guess that many would jump at the chance if it meant breaking the cycle for themselves. It is a question of how desperate they feel and desperation is an entirely subjective element.

I have been avoiding making another comment on the PC issues mentioned here because, well, it IS political in a sense and because this is a fruitless exercise. For every sin that is noted here, there is a counterpoint that would make the complaint itself a sin. In that sense, this is a "lose lose" thread.

Edited by - Indy11 on 10-12-2003 20:19:31

It's because teenagers don't have the ability to see what they are nessacairly doing.

I was with some old high school people, and naturaly the topic went onto sex. We started talking about this girl...

Guy1: "So, did you do her?"
guy2: "Ya...twice!"

At that point, guy two started laughing, like it was all some big joke that had no meaning. That kinda pissed me off. Tecnicaly, sex is an invasion of a woman's body. And all men should be lucky to be invited in.

But people don't care. They all look at the short term and not of the long. Everything is now now now, give me, give me, give me.

*sigh* For someone who is only 20 I feel old....

Life: No one gets out alive.