Do YOU belive in time travel?

Wed Aug 06, 2003 9:04 pm by Regulator

I think it may be possible to create a paradox and test the threories.

From what I have heard in the news a while back, a physicist actually made light travel faster than the speed of light. The result was that the light arrived before it left.

If they could make a switch fast enough, they could do the test. They could set up the same thing with making the light arrive before it left. But, this time they could put a switch on the light emitter that turns it off if the light arrives.

If the paradox is created, then there are many possibilies that can be created using the imagination.
--There could be the destruction of the universe.
--A gate to an alternate demention could be created for an instant of opened permanently.
--Or nothing would happen, which would suggest that an alternate universe was created and the old one stopped.

Regulator
USB/GOV Website

Wed Aug 06, 2003 9:20 pm by Locutov

the starships in ST are controlled by antimatter engines.

A mr. Cochrane in 2063 thought out that by controlling the annihilation of matter and antimatter you get to go FTL (Faster Then Light)

if antimatter were to exist it would like an aura of somesort of energy fitting the atom and when they collide they become 1 thereby annihilating the whole thing releasing such an energy that you can easily get past the "light" barrier

and for one thing einstein was wrong. when he conceived his theory of relativity
he didn't take into account that there maybe particles moving at an FTL basis.
what they are we still don't know what because we can't measure

as for I.Q. on other worlds. there is, believe me. but the fact that we didn't have the honour of a visit by these I.E.'s (Intelligent Entities) is maybe they are too
much back in their development (neanderthauls) or too far ahead and they consider us primitive(The vulcans)

__________________________________________________________
Oh, dear, How sad, Never mind!!-Battery Sergeant Major Williams

Thu Aug 07, 2003 1:39 am by Arcon

From what I have heard in the news a while back, a physicist actually made light travel faster than the speed of light. The result was that the light arrived before it left.

Excuse me? well what if he changed his mind at the last second? do you have any idea how absolutely goddamn rediculous that sounds? so as he reached to touch the on button the light was already shining away? thats madness. it also means your seeing something that is yet to happen, meaning it WILL happen, meaning theres no stopping it, meaning the future is written. if this magical physicist existed i bet he hung himself the very same day.

I'm afraid it goes against LOGIC to have something happen before you tell it to, effect cannot happen PRE-cause

and can we stop with the alternate universe bullcrap please? i mean its just a tool used to make paradox's possible for storywriters, its the most absurd thing ever. Like when you accidentally do something SO bad you just wanna turn back the clock cause you cant deal with it, THATS when you start thinking about a world where you DIDNT do that thing. Pure mental escapism, what its not, is anywhere near real

-arcon
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Thu Aug 07, 2003 6:02 pm by Regulator

Supposedly the light arrived a fraction of a nano-second before it left. The switch would be automatic and programmed so to turn the light on at a particular time. And as as soon as the light arrives it shuts off.

In order to discover new physics laws, you have to keep your mind open to things that sound absolutely rediculous. Way back in the day, they discovered that two items of different weights and densities would fall at the same speed and rate of acceleration. When someone heard of this new physics property, they probably thought it sounded abosolutely rediculous, until someone demonstrated it. It certainly sparked there curiosity and they tried it. The same goes with the Paradox test that I put in the previous post.

I'm afraid it goes against LOGIC to have something happen before you tell it to, effect cannot happen PRE-cause

This certainly makes sense to me. But maybe that law can be bypassed. Who knows?

Relative time is Flexible. The closer you are to strong gravity, the slower time moves for you, relative to matter that is in a weaker gravity field. If you could survive going into a black hole and then come back out of it, you would see that the rest of the universe aged more than you. Same if you go near the speed of light.

Time is kept in the matter itself. You age at a speed that is dependant on the speed that the atoms react with eachother. If you slow down matter's time clock then you travel forward in time on a continuous line.

What if you got the time clock of matter to slow down so much that it started to reverse? Maybe that would cause the matter to go backward in time. Anti-Matter might be matter with its time clock reversed and when it combines with matter it cause a collision of sub-matter energy particles that are going in the opposite direction or have opposite poles. When the sub-matter energy particles collide, they deflect and scatter, which destroys the matter and releases all of the energy.

Well, let me go back to the idea that the reversed time clock could make you go back in time. If this is true, then it doesn't matter if the current configuration of of the matter was an effect caused by a preceding cause. That matter will still go back in time and can do what it pleases when it goes back to the normal time speed, even if that includes eliminating its cause.

The matter is put back into the past and causes the omition of its cause, but it does not stop existing. It just never sees its cause happen. Same thing kinda happens when someone deletes a post that someone else responded to. It still happened, but it is now omitted from the forum.

I don't claim to believe that these ideas are true or that they are logical. They are just fun to think of.

Regulator
USB/GOV Website

Thu Aug 07, 2003 9:11 pm by 666heretic

There is anti-matter.

i have seen a picture of what was thought to be anti-matter, it basiclly looked like a pencil lead all shaved off.

but if it was, then that tube woulda exploded or something.

Anti-matter cannot touch realmatter. IF it did both would cancel out.

so if you were to touch anti-matter, you would not die, you would just cease to exsist. you would be canceled out. there would be nothing left of you. not one atom.

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Fri Aug 08, 2003 9:44 am by Gung_Ho

@Trajan: I agree wholeheartedly. Science is really based around working models, or theories, where nothing is known to be certain, but theories are used as a platform from which to work. I wasn't suggesting that a lack of information about our universe makes the possibility of FTL travel or Time travel a certainty. I was simply suggesting that it remains possible. Breakthrough science will provide a motivation to re-examine those areas which are currently considered a 'waste of time'. Granted, until then, they are just sci-fi.

@Regulator: Here is a link talking about the same kind of effect you are speaking of (quantum tunneling):
Faster-than-light speeds in tunneling experiments: an annotated bibliography

About Paradox: Nature abhors a paradox. The 'paradox test' idea being thrown around would be a good one, except that typically the paradox vanishes when scrutinized with a better working knowledge of the physics of the situation. In short, the paradox only exists because we don't know what would actually happen. It's a cop-out, really. Just because we can't wrap our brains around what seems to be a paradox, doesn't mean a paradox actually exists. For examples of former paradox's we now know to be fully explainable, read up on the Twins Paradox or the Barn-Door Paradox (thought experiments in Special Relativity).

I will quickly illustrate the Barn-Door Paradox for the sake of showing how we sometimes need a better working knowledge to understand that what seems to be a paradox really is not:

Envision that you have a Barn 10 meters long standing in an open field. The barn has two doors, one on the south end, and one on the north end.

Now envision that there is a car, 10 meters in length exactly, that will drive through the barn in a northerly direction. So far so good.

Now imagine that there is a farmer standing by the barn, who will attempt to close both of the doors for an instant around the car. Not even a split second, but rather an instant. Is this possible? Common wisdom would say no. The car is 10 meters long, and so is the barn. The doors would fall apon the car as they tried to close around it.

However, let's change the equation. Lets assume that the car is going at 0.6C (0.6 times the speed of light). Due to the length dialation effects (Lorentz contraction) predicted by relativity, the car seems to be only 5 meters long from the farmers point of view. The car WILL fit within the barn. However, from the driver's point of view, the barn is only 5 meters long, and only HALF the length of the car, thus the car will NOT fit in the barn.

Now ladies and gentlemen, this isn't a mere matter of perspective. This is reality. In the farmer's frame of reference, the car IS 5 meters long, and in the driver's frame of reference, the barn IS 5 meters long. It isn't just a trick of perspective. So we have a paradox. Or at least we have what seems to be a paradox, until we explore the effects of relativity in greater depth.

Farmer's perspective: The answer to this 'paradox' is that the car WILL fit within the barn from the farmer's perspective. The car is only 5 meters long in his frame of reference, and fits within the barn for the instant the doors are closed.

Drivers perspective: The doors don't close at quite the same time. First the north door closes as the car approaches, and then it opens, allowing the car to pass through. Then, as the rear of the car passes the south door, it closes behind the car for an instant.

This occurs because in relativity, Simultaneity is not a constant. Two events that occur at the same time in one frame of reference, will appear offset from another frame of reference, presuming that frame of reference is at relativistic speed perpendicular to the orientation of the events. Our paradox isn't really a paradox, because we forgot to account for this property of relativity.

Don't just take my word for it. Read up on it. This 'paradox' was a well known one, and being solved, is now used as a thought experiment to illustrate how relativistic operations can be counter-intuitive to our paradigmal thinking.

The logic behind a 'paradox test' would be that since a paradox cannot exist, anything that presents a paradox must be impossible. I submit to you fine gentlemen that like the barn door paradox, what seems to be a paradox might, in fact, just require a greater working knowledge of the rules of nature.

Hmm.. Ok, I was looking around for a quick link to the barn door paradox and this is the best one I came up with on short order:
Here

Edited to make it easier to read.

Edited by - Gung_Ho on 17-08-2003 01:46:53

Fri Aug 08, 2003 9:30 pm by Locutov

@ FF

the sky in terminator is always dark because A> it has to look apocalyptic and B>
Kyle says in the first movie that it's only safe to come out at night.

Just so you know it.

Edited by - locutus on 08-08-2003 22:34:51

Sat Aug 09, 2003 2:05 am by Arcon

now were getting into the problem i rased in the other time travel thread. Time travel regarding gravity is (i beleive) relative to the user.
If you went into a black hole (assuming you would survive), time would appear to move slower for you as the light rays would take longer to move to you, eventually being swallowed up altogether by the gravity well.
Now then, imagine you are blind, the light rays wont affect you, so are you still moving slower than the universe which ISNT effected by the black hole?

its all about perception i beleive

-arcon
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Sat Aug 09, 2003 10:19 pm by Setsuna

It's all about the comprehension of the terms "time" "space" and "travel"... It appears that everyone has their own idea what time should be, and that's the reason why there are so many wrong theories...
In conclusion, I think that there is no such thing as time travel . (well, there is, we are all constantly traveling forward through time, but you know what I meant...)

Careful what you wish... You might just get it.

Sat Aug 09, 2003 10:23 pm by Locutov

If you think that, I'll have another one for you

we constantly travel through time, but just in one direction.

EDIT: some time ago in the debate threads someone stated that we can view the 4th Dimension. I said he was wrong because I stipulated that we cannot observe the 4th dimension. by thinking about it, I found out I was wrong, because

A> if you are a 1-dimensional object (a line) you can observe a 2-dimensional square.

B> if you are a 2-dimensional figure (a puppet or cartoon figure) you can observe a 3-dimensional cube

C> if you are a 3-dimensional object (a "human"

you must be able to observe something. so the only thing we observe must be indeed time (by the means of observation stipulated above)

I know it's not concrete evidence, but I think time does exist. It's not made up by humans to make the day go faster. people used to have solar centimetres and they had some sort of geometry triangel with a scale of 25(!) instead of 24 hour pins. each pin about counted 1 (modern geometric) inch and represented 1 hour.
It also had at the bottom a horizontal peace of glass with a fluid and an airbubble
in it to measure if it was correctly held in the hands of the user.

BTW: on a sidenote the term second comes from the vibrations in the electron shell of a Cesium-139 (139-Cs) atom. 1 second represents 999.999.990 vibrations

Edited by - locutus on 10-08-2003 01:51:12

Sun Aug 10, 2003 5:38 am by Gung_Ho

First off, Relativity is not related to perception so much as Frame of reference. Light is irrelevant, other than it travels at C, which describes the maximum speed with which an event can effect the rest of the universe. Other things that share the constant C are Microwaves, radio waves, gamma rays, X-rays and gravitic waves to name a few. It could just as easily be called the constant of the speed of radio. Vision or eyeballs have nothing to do with it. As you approached a black hole, the rest of the universe would speed up from your perspective, while outside observers would see you slowing down. Where you to somehow escape from a blackhole, after attaining say 0.9999 C, you would find that millenia had flashed by in an instant. A blind man would discover exactly the same thing. Special Relativity has basically nothing to do with how light interacts with your eyeballs.

On the topic of dimensions: This is actually simple math. Objects with less than 4 dimensions simply do not exist. Never existed in fact. An object without depth has a volume of x times x times zero = zero. Its no different than imagining you are sanding a piece of furniture, and continue sanding until it is absolutely zero in thinkness. At that point you have no more furniture. It is gone. Same goes for height, and width. And time. An object without a fourth dimension existed for a duration of zero. aka: it never existed. Objects of less than 4 dimensions are useful conceptually, but they do not truly exist.

@Chetnik: I agree with you that there are many wrong theories. I find that the probability of any one theory being perfectly correct and applicable is near zero, statistically. However, this convinces me that Time travel may be possible, or may be not, and that I (and any other person) would be unqualified to decide. I am surprised that to you this absence of data means it does not exist. That implies that you believe that something cannot exist, without data on it's existance. That is rather close minded imo. The same methodology was used to decide that humanity would never achieve flight, travel to the moon, or break the sound barrier. Some people pride themselves in being firmly grounded in the world we live in. Other people change it.

Mon Aug 11, 2003 10:58 pm by Setsuna

@Gung_ho: As many others did so often, you too misunderstood me...
I didn't (want to) say that time travel is impossible because I didn't see it, it's just that one sentance followed another and you automatically connected them in one thought. And I never would've guessed that anyone would characterise (sp?) me as a down-to-Earth person... Anyway, I think that time travel is impossible inside one universe, instead you would need an alternate universe to go to, so the one you travelled from wont change if you go back in time and change something... Basically, my idea is many different universes within one timeline, not the other way around. (oversimplification)

EDIT: I H8 TYPOS! ESPECIALLY MY TYPOS

Edited by - chetnik on 12-08-2003 21:47:39

Tue Aug 12, 2003 2:56 am by Gung_Ho

Fair enough..

I don't suppose you ever read the TimeWars saga by Simon Hawke? If not, then you might find it interesting - it tackles a similar concept.. And it's not nearly as cheesy as the title makes it sound..

edit for spelling error.

Edited by - Gung_Ho on 12-08-2003 19:30:16

Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:41 pm by Locutov

@ gung_ho

Dimensions are not irrelevant, otherwise you wouldn't even exist.
secondly,... babbling on about the relevance of the dimensions, Einstein once said that Space and Time are Relevant to eachother so I think Einstein pretty much provided proof for the 4th dimension-theory

Note: before anyone goes babbling on about time not existing, I said it was relevant not existant. what does that imply. that it is relevant to us as a instrument of measurement. not as an actual fact

Thu Aug 14, 2003 8:30 am by Gung_Ho

I didn't say dimensions where irrelevant. I said objects with less than 4 dimensions do not exist.

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