This has to be the most sensible topic and aproach i have read, as to the concerns that now face much of the Freelancer modding community.
What realy needs to be done is, as you say to now find out just what will be tolerated as far as MS is concerned.
The Starlancer and Freelancer Mod Community is very young in comparison to other mod communitys, and some will make mistakes that the older mod communitys have come through because they know what is tolerated by the various Developers/Producers, any attempt to copyright a mod will bring down the wrath of the Developer and or Production company of the original game,, this is well understood in most mod communitys. whatever way you look at it and however well you dress it up, the work on any mod relys on work and Development of the original non modded game, that cost hundred's of thousands to Develop.
Another thing that most Developers wont tolerate is creating and the placing of other copyrighted material into a game, so making a Star Wars TC will almost certainly get you a Cease and Desist contact from Lucas Arts in that case.
These are facts that have been learnt the hard way from other more mature modding communitys.
I have myself sent an email to MS's PR company asking of their tolerance level of Freelancer modding and if it had a zero tolerance on this.
I have also removed all the files and links pertaining to our clan mod and had the server we hosted turned off until we get some indication as to tolerance from them (this had limited public release as it was meant for our clan on our server).
But it Does affect us all, as you say this issue needs to be dealt with in a mature manner with respect for the original Producers of Freelancer, without who, we would all have nothing to mod.
So lets get our head out the clouds and approach the problems this issue raises in a mature manner.

ok no offense i didnt even bother reading anything above but i just want to say this, all we need to do as a modding comunity is just type of the rules of what ms has power over and we what have power over nothing else, i mean its pretty straight forward. we are dealing with one of the computer idustries largest tycoon if not the largest. there is no lee-way with these people. unless we pull together in an all out effort to combine our thoughts we dont get anywhere, so basically the most we can do is follow their rules and drop all the copyrights, and hope that people will be on their honor and acknowledge eachothers work respectfully. i know there are idiots among us who dont care, but there are the moderators on this site that can control what is realeased it may be morw work for them, but its the best way we can control our work without and of these copyrighted stuff.

Mess With the Best Die lIke the Rest
Check out my Freelancer Website FLPoliceclan.tripod.com

Why can't people just make their mods, release them, and when someone else take their work and says it is theirs just say that and move on. Using the "copywrite" card to make a statement is the stupidest thing one could ever think of to protect "their" work. Let me put it in perspective here.

Modders are a rare, albeit very talented breed though, and I understand people getting pissy about others taking credit for others work, but if the entire community did EXACTLY the opposite of what Microsoft has been accused over over the years (monopoly, buying up competition, being the only option, etc etc) we'd have a P E R F E C T situation. Modding in an open source module. Everyone would feed off everyone else and no one would give a rats ass about who did what first (except maybe the egomaniacs who don't have the maturity to play well with others).

I s e r i o u s l y doubt Microsoft would have batted an eyelash in the above stated situation. They'd probably do what they have been accused of for years...buy up the frickin' talent. I've not met one modder that doesn't know exactly what is their original work and are prepared to prove it at a moments notice. Many many times modders in a gaming community have been offered high paying jobs for their work. These talented individuals could be our next generation of space sims creators for gawds sakes. Harness the talent, don't get into a legal issue and kill the space sims (et all games)

But no, someone feels the need to copyright a single part of the whole and both Microsoft AND the modder go away mad at each other. I say when you lay rights to an apple, why take it when you can be given to whole orchard further down the line. There are no guarentees of course, but this is not the way to get your foot in the door. DUH!

/rant off

Edited by - Stinger on 07-10-2003 00:14:59

Edited by - Stinger on 07-10-2003 00:15:56

i have to agree with you

Mess With the Best Die lIke the Rest
Check out my Freelancer Website FLPoliceclan.tripod.com
AIM SN - SuBZeRo69069 (feel free to IM me if you need any Modding help)

well just a few words from me...

NOTE TO ANYONE SUPPORTING REYNEN OR ANYONE WHO IS REYNEN, YOU MIGHT FIND THIS VERY CONTRADICTING TO YOUR OPINION. READ AT YOUR OWN RISK.

for one, id like to come out and say that if i looked like an attention whore, i wonder what reynen has become. he was playing with fire. lets face it. whether or not things he id were legal, he was still going overboard. and then when this happens, he starts coming out and pointing fingers (just check the announcement about this on his site.), trying to make the whole situation worse and make everything go poof. in addition, he starts going on and on about "my mod was the first major mod blah blah blah, everything thus HAD to be be based on mine because im so special."

now, from the beginning of this issue, i was on reynen's side. however, i slowly faded to other sides as points were stated. the fact that some players were confused is because those players are morons, so ignore that fact brought up by microsoft. but how about the fact that he was trying to copyright material that wasn't his? we cant know for sure what he was and wasn't copyrighting, but im assuming he was copyrighting hte other people's stuff, as microsoft clearly brought it up that he had done something of that matter. they also brought up that they were contacting the other people involved, leading me to believe this further.

i would like to agree with stinger on this matter. people steal stuff. tuff. deal with it. ive had my stuff stolen before (not just mods, ive had other stuff from other websites), and the worst i bothered to do was flame the person, or ask that they politely stop what they were doing. even if you copyright it, whats gonna stop them from taking it anyway? kazaa is still here, isn't it? sure, they aer sueing those who upload, but what of those who download? nothings happening to them.

well, that was my two cents. or two euros. or two canadian cents. or two pesos. or two whatever the hell your currency is. screw it. in soviet russia, mods copyright YOU!

Stinger:

First let me ask you, have you very made anything important to you that you wanted to protect?

Also tell me, why was the copyright law invented? To help people protect things that they created, yes?

Your attitude is, no-one owns anything and steal what you want because people will steal it from you.

As a site admin, it's pretty poor of you to condone stealing. Your post made it PERFECTLY CLEAR on your stance on modders in this community.

YOU ARE AGAINST MODDERS PROTECTING THEIR WORK IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM.

This IS good news though. I guess since this is the general attitude I'll abandon my moral values and take what I want from anyone. If they have a problem with it I'll have them contact you so you can blow them off.

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Wassup:

You don't even know who I am, and you label me. Lol oh well, since your assuming stuff, guess i can too. I don't know you either, but by the way you talk it seems you're a thief who services go to the highest bidder who cares only for themself and will do anything to get anything.

Well it SEEMS that way...but like most everyone here if it SEEMS to be that way it MUST BE TRUE. The power of assumption. It's the easiest thing to do, you don't need facts, nor proof, you AUTOMATICALLY KNOW what is actually right and naturally everyone else is wrong.

NOW ONTO THE FACTS:

now, from the beginning of this issue, i was on reynen's side. however, i slowly faded to other sides as points were stated. the fact that some players were confused is because those players are morons, so ignore that fact brought up by microsoft. but how about the fact that he was trying to copyright material that wasn't his? we cant know for sure what he was and wasn't copyrighting, but im assuming he was copyrighting hte other people's stuff, as microsoft clearly brought it up that he had done something of that matter. they also brought up that they were contacting the other people involved, leading me to believe this further.

As stated plainly above and by the choice of name, you need to get caught up to speed son. You don't even know the current situation and are already commenting and assuming on it. Just want to point out a few thing from the above.

we cant know for sure what he was and wasn't copyrighting, but im assuming he was copyrighting hte other people's stuff, as microsoft clearly brought it up that he had done something of that matter.

Considering I have already stated what I was trying to copyright in other threads you either:

a: Can't read
OR
b: Can't understand what was wrote. If english is not your native language I will be happy to find a translator for you.

I already stated what i was in alot of other posts, I'm not repeating myself. Also as you said yourself YOU ARE ASSUMING stuff that just isn't true.

Please show me where MS said I was copyrighting other people's stuff? Did you get some part of the letter that I missed?

How does MS contacting them have to deal with any copyright issues? Did you ever think they might be contacting them to ask questions? I'm not going into this since there is no facts about this and I WILL NOT MAKE ASUMPTIONS UNLIKE 99% of the people on here.

You're reading into things that just aren't there, except with the help of imagination.

i would like to agree with stinger on this matter. people steal stuff. tuff. deal with it.

HMMMM!!! SO it's ok to steal then!! YES. Would yo mind providing me with your full name, address, and CC. I would like some money. I'll remember this next time you have something interesting.

Do you know thieves absolutely love people like you. You condone it and when it happens you just suck it up and don't do anything. Then they can do it again!!! Stealing apparently just dosn't matter to you.

Reynen Starfyre
Project Leader: Starfyre Studios
Freelancer: The Next Generation

Edited by - Reynen on 07-10-2003 02:39:11

Reynen if you keep thinking ppl stealing your work then I think you should start thinking why MS after you.

If you build a software/game from scratch then it is yours. You can register it and go into legal action against these who are stealing it. In this case, you are stealing microsoft's work because they built the game from the scratch. You registerd the modification because you think it is yours. Now MS think you are using their software and went into illegal software development. I agree with MS because it is their work in the first place. Clear up your mind and start to think, you stole their work and took credits of it. Just exactly why you are not happy with these took your works and didn't give you credits of it.

If you want make things clear, let me help you.
WE ARE MODDERS, WE MOD GAME FOR FUN NOT FOR ANYTHING ELSE. WE CAN NOT REGISTER OUR WORK BECAUSE WE ARE MODIFING IT, NOT BUILDING.
SHARE THEM OR NOT IS UP TO YOU. POST MODS HERE IS CALLED SHARING, NOT STEALLING.

Peace doesn't exist between the livings, but the dead.

Intersting quote you have there. It fits actually for your purpose.

At any rate I think it's time we end the bickering. I have important matters I ened to deal with besides wasting my post replying to angry people :p (i'll explain more on that below)

Anyway I can up with a mod disclaimer I think most should follow given the current situation and everyone's feelings about copyright.

NO MODDER OWNS RIGHT TO ANYTHING THEY CREATE.

IT IS USEABLE BY ANYONE, FOR ANYTHING WITH OR WITHOUT YOUR PERMISSION.

NO CREDIT IS NEEDED NOR WILL BE GIVEN DUE TO LIABILITY IN GIVING CREDIT.

THE MODDING COMMUNITY WHOLE-HEARTLY CONDONES AND SUPPORTS STEALING OF OTHER WORKS WITHOUT COMPENSATION OF CREDIT, AND ANYONE MAY TRY AND PROFIT OFF ANYONE WORK AT ANY GIVEN TIME.

Sound ok to everyone. Seems to be the general opinion anyway.

And for what I posted in the other thread, I think it's important that we all actually settle down now

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lastly you guys do realize that I have not been angry in alot of this stuff and purposely made my statements the way they are so that it would get people riled up and thinking about what is going on, and then later on when they are cooled down will think logically about it - re-read my posts - and see the logic if it.

Think about it, what gets you upset generally stays on your mind alot longer then something that you like because of the sense of injustice. Natural reaction.

There is no better crowd to manipulate then gamers on a common cause because they all get single minded and are rattled easily. I rather enjoyed it for a bit, now I'm a bit bored and tired and think I will let the dust settle so people can re-examing everything.

I'm sure many of you are feeling a bit confused / shocked / and especially angry, but that is exactly what I want you to be. So it worked out rather well.

Sorry to do this but I think at this point I've seperated the people who really don't care and the peopel who do care about what happens. People's true natures were also exposed, some of which I was very sad about....but...you have to expect the unexpected.

Like they say, your true friends stay to help fight the fire, the rest run.

Now once everyone calms down can we think of a solution on how to solve this current situation?

Reynen Starfyre
Project Leader: Starfyre Studios
Freelancer: The Next Generation

Edited by - Reynen on 07-10-2003 03:30:48

holy crap it will take all night to read all this
yet i have one thing to say thought it might have been said allready
it is microsofts production so they have the right to do whatever theyre doing (not to some people) but, whoever did the copyright thing shouldnt have

In Soviet Russia there are no copyright laws!

"Turn left at fork in road......
In Soviet Russia, road forks you!"

Reynen, I'll make this post easy to read and simple....

It's obvious you have no idea how I feel about people that take a nice piece of software and put their own creativity into it....no idea. But reading between the lines is not wise. I'm as black and white about that as Microsoft was in that letter.

I've read all your posts, re-read all of mine and tell me I'm against modders again...I dare ya. Triple dare ya.

Reynen... I'm sorry. But I have to side with MS. When the Boston Pops Orchestra plays Star Wars, they contact John Williams' company first. The law is clear. When a community band plays Star Wars for free, they don't need to contact anyone. The law is also clear. We know you did not attempt to make a profit... but you did attempt to copyright their material. Even if not EXACTLY their material... a ship put into a game was still put in using their code. And they hold the keys to that.

I suggest you back down, Reynen. Just... let it slide as a lesson learned on behalf of the Freelancer MODding community.

erm, now your just flaming me off of my name? jeez. and i can use that to counter your post.

you never really did bother to ask me why this is my screen name almost everywhere, did you? you just ASSUMED why i created it, where it came from, and the like.

and no, i am not saying people should go around stealing random stuff. nor am i saying im a thief. i suppose using kazaa might constitue that, but ive long gotten rid of the program so that the RIAA doesn't fine my little ass. however, if i wanted to steal stuff, id have released tons of mods with both your stuff and other stuff, tons of ships with reqorked stats, all without permission. i haven't done that, have i?

i also do believe that in one post about the mod you actually complained about how i made a cloaking mod. it was something about your measures to stop cloaking or whatnot in hte TNG mod. that or it was the rhienlanders dropping cloaks. something to that effect. well, you came out and said something to the effect of "this wouldn't be a problem had the moron wassup not released the mod." well, let me tell you, you once again assumed something, and had assumed i released it for the cheaters.

so, is big bad reynen now assuming stuff? remember, when you assume, you make an ass out of you and me . mostly you in this case however, as you have just become hypocritical.

also, i must apologize for not reading every post in every thread dedicated to this issue.

Regarding Reynens earlier post where he made comments about wassup and wassup assuming things

assuming makes and ass out of you and me
that settles that
please dont assume it pisses some people off

"Turn left at fork in road......
In Soviet Russia, road forks you!"

Edited by - ):Wolf_Demon on 07-10-2003 04:42:37