What's fair or legal doesn't really matter anymore in this world of money. Microsoft cannot be outspent or legally outmaneauvered. When it wants something, it will get it. M$ will never change
The only reason copyright laws remain today is that they are largely ignored, it makes no sense to stifle creativity and progress so that an already wealthy company may milk every dollar out of overpriced software.

I believe there are more filesharers than people who voted in the last US election. I'm waiting for someone to run on the filesharing platform.

When I say they hold the keys to that (putting in your ships with their codes), I mean ... "They have a means to an ends"...

Fact is, they don't want your MOD to exist. Something you did caused them to write you and finish it. If you EVER modify their files, you're technically already guilty. They choose to enforce their rights as they see fit.

Also... I see people debating "What they are copyrighting"... as the MS letter said, the issue is settled, and Reynen's copyright was closed.

In the interest of the Freelancer community, don't let this damage everyone.

I am at this point VERY dissapointed in MOST of the posts here ... my god people didn't you see him LOCK the other thread? I wanted to make this thread NOT a flame war but COMPLETELY constructive on developing ideas that microsoft will read not mindless banter and accusations. I ASK VERY VERY STRONGLY THAT TLR DELETE ALL non-constructive posts that do not directly reply to my original proposition. There are so many places including my own forums where everyone is ranting, I have no need for any more ranting thanks, I was looking for solutions. TLR PLEASE HELP US HELP OURSELVES by heavilly moderating this thread, I'm very serious about this subject, most of the posts here are not relivant to the task at hand at all. PLEASE TLR PLEASE I have to have constructive input.

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MSensei
Please visit my freelancer server. http://www.msensei.com/freelancer/

Msensei, you're not being constructive either, you're just flaming over people with which you do not agree. What good does deleting other people's posts serve? If you don't agree with something, don't read it. When administrators delete/lock threads, people feel as if they haven't gotten their two cents in, and then they post more, and usually are less focused and more irritated in these new posts. I think they ought to just make sure the arguments stay contained to one thread, free of libel/slander, and then let everyone wear himself out. We don't need censorship, moderators ought to keep the issues consolidated so the rest of us don't have to wade through all the locked posts and nonsense to find what we're looking for.

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New opinions are always suspected, and usually opposed, without any other reason but because they are not already common.

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-John Locke

This is my first entry into this debate. But I have a SOLUTION to all woes. If Bargib wants to, or allows another to moderate it, The Lancer's Reactor can host a mod registry on its site, beyond just the downloads.

New and unique works can be registered on this site with credit to the author.

The registry can be either hidden or shown, depending on whether the creator will allow it to be shared. If a new modder takes a shown one, he is to immediately apply a credit statement to his readme. If he doesn't, his mod won't be hosted on TLR.

A registry here. Not the copywrite office, right here. Simple as that.


Sir Spectre

.... Time passes too quickly to be enjoyed and too slowly to be endured.

Edited by - Sir Spectre on 07-10-2003 08:25:18

I'm just gonna go play Excelcia....

**************
REYNEN
NO MODDER OWNS RIGHT TO ANYTHING THEY CREATE
**************

this is NOT correct. i will answer from a modeller and designers perspective. the design and model of your ship is yours. copyright it how you like by law, or by simply posting it to yourself and getting govermental seal dates on it. however you like? but no one has rights over your model or your design. the key here is proof you came up with it first. as some one in one of the other post mentions. most modellers dont care until the issue arrives because we all have common sense and keep a means to proove what we did and when. so all those who have created models and ships for the game worry not, just start protecting yourself and have a back up plan should the issue arrive.

now i realise this cannot be the same for codes but since i am not a coder i couldn't really care. i just wanted to have a say for the modellers who are getting confused from this whole issue. keep creating and keep modelling.

Now Reynen i realise this is a big issue for you but please please do not start flaming the admins. i have been modding with this site since before you even realised that it existed many of them have stood by this community since the first concept of freelancer began. they helped people like me find my feet and become the game modeller i am now. you say you know where they stand on modding and modellers yet you really have no idea at all. you keep flaming people for judging you yet in the same sentence you judge others. all i know is one thing and one thing alone, i like the lancers reactor its a great site with a huge community of modellers and designers and with out it most of use would still be making block ships with blurred skins. my hat goes of to the dedication to all the staff behind the reactor and i hope this MS issue doesnt affect it in anyway because it would be a great loss to see the lancers get shutdown over confilt of issues between modders and game creators.

MSensei, we do have the power to delete posts. But deleting or editing is considered extreme. Only illegal or very offensive comments are edited out - deletion is very rare. This thread is hot, but can still be productive.

Reynen, stop twisting Stinger's words! he's just saying that modders should treat their mods as open-source. To other modders who need to include another person's brainchild, please have the decency to ask permission first and credit the original inventor. That's it.

And here's something - can we agree that TLR is the greatest, biggest, most complete FL site, right? we can enforce some of that intellectual rights. Any modder who is somebody needs to go through TLR. If you feel like your mod has been "stolen" or used without your permission (or forgetting to credit you) report it to the Forums. We can't afford lawyers to sue the guy, but we can use public pressure. This has been done before, and the mod "thief"apologized, then the original mod owner gave him permission anyway to use the mod after the public apology.

Not rules - just guidelines

1. Ask permission before using/including someone else's mod (partial or whole). Just the decent thing to do. 99.9% of the whole time you'll get that permission anyway.

2. Do not forget to credit the original owner.

Simple, isn't it?

reynen unless you say buy the game engine of MS then you cant realy copyright it seeings as it is not yours
im not saying your trying to copyright the game engine but you are changing the product which MS has funded and owns
so its not yours to copyright.

OK, I am trying to bypass most of what is here (because I fear Fear Factor and his abrupt thread terminations ) and was trying to think how to contribute to MSensei's requests on how admins should deal with this. It's then I saw comments made by Threat Matrix relating to feedback on this TNG issue.

Threat Matrix wrote under comments for the TNG issue news article:

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When asked about IONCROSS anti-cheat server only program, M$ unoffically supports its.

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As a sysadmin of an un-modded server using FLSO, this is where I am most concerned. I am gratified at their support and, I assume, tolerance.

Threat Matrix wrote under comments for the TNG issue news article:

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M$ feels it is up to the individual player if they want to cheat for single player not the modders. If the modders wants to have no cheaters on thier servers they should make anti-cheat server only. Once modders include anti-cheat client side, M$ will step in.

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This may explain why no client side patch has appeared, they actually may encourage modding (cheating in MP on un-modded servers) on the client side. This is also making things very difficult for sysadmins. As most well know, there are cheats/mods that no server side mod can stop. It's these differences between what the client is doing and the server is expecting that cause CPU usage to rise and bandwidth to dry up. Thus ALL players, cheaters and non-cheaters, feel the ill effects.

To sum up my feeling on this, I wish there was some way to stop cheating on servers, however the sysadmin chooses to define cheating (within the bounds of the EULA, the law and M$' tolerance). Since client side anti-cheat solutions are needed for the client-side only cheats, I see these comments above hurting those who could provide solutions. Cheaters have certainly frustrated quite a few sysadmins who have posted on TLR and they may eventually contribute to a quicker FL downfall and/or smaller FL community.

I realize I am making the ASSUMPTION that Threat Matrix' comments were correct and from legitimate sources so please don't flame me for something I am aware of. Yet most of these statements have relavance for sysadmins trying to run FL servers the way they want (within the bounds of the EULA, the law and M$' tolerance). If anyone has more information please share.

---------------
Earendil
SysAdmin of Boston Freelancer server

These posts are soo much fun!

I won't bother to explain my legal background and I have no intention of wasting any time "prooving" anything so you can take this for whats it's worth (either $0.01 for my thoughts or my $0.02, your choice).

Ok, that said the first piece of advice for any legal matter is to consult with an attorney in cases dealing with questionable, sensitive, highly disputed or otherwise risky nature I would suggest consulting with multiple attorneys. In any case I would certainly not recommend consulting an internet forum at a video game site

If you're still reading there are a few things to consider, first is that I wholeheartedly believe the oringal threat allegedly from MS to be a hoax so my opinion may be tainted. If you want reasons, the only two I can offer is that they spelled EULA wrong and that the entire format of the letter was too basic to be from MS, they seem to enjoy far more legal terminology than was used in that letter.

EDIT: Further adding to my doubts is the fact that the typos in the posted version of the letter have been corrected since I originaly read them.

I still haven't seen an "official" list from Reynen (or anyone else) stating exactly what they were supposed to be trying to copyright. There *may* have been a few problems with that despite the fact that their intent was only to protect "their" work. For example, if the cmp file format is proprietary to either DA or MS there is no way to legally copyright the finished product as a whole (model in this example), it is possible to copyright the concept or design however. The problem here is that the model and even the graphics stored in another possibly proprietary format (.mat) contain code that none of us have a right to and can therefore not protect as our own. Because the existing Freelancer License does not allow for derivative works you can not even claim that even though you're using a proprietary format you contribute such a significant amount of work to the finished product that it was no longer obviously a derivative work. Derivative works must be explicitly allowed to be legal, not explicity disallowed to be illegal. Allthough in practice this is sometimes not exactly the case.

The changes made to the ini files are an exceptional case. I don't even want to go into the compression format used on them by DA or MS which some may consider to be a security mechanism therefore making the act of modifying them no different than any act of circumventing a security mechanism. The problem with attempting to claim ownership of any changes made in them is that they are merely data files they are not code. They meet one of the definitions of a data file in that they contain a series of fields and corresponding values (e.g. field = value). Because they are a data file you have the right to protect your individual data contents from unauthorized viewing, editing or distribution. However, once you freely distribute that data you forfeit those rights unless and explicit license or contract (or other legal agreement) is in effect between you and the recipient. The common "by clicking/installing/loading/running/etc... you agree" type of argeement has been defeated in court many times and great care should be taken in using such a method of licensing. Any attempts to copyright the data in a data file will likely fail regardless of what the data is, instead the data itself, devoid of and detached from the data file must be protected and trying to get a copyright on something like "seperable = true" is going to get you quite literally laughed out of court. Even if by some stroke of luck a copyright was granted for data such as this the limited possibilities for variety within the data files would make any claims of copyright violation easy to defeat in court especially considering the fact that the burden of proof lies upon you and in civil matters (in the US anyway) the judge or jury merely needs to be 50.000001% in favor of the defendent to rule in their favor.

So there you have it, I'm not a lawyer but I've spent plenty of time dealing with them and, as much as I hate them, all I can say is if you're really interested in this kind of stuff you need to speak with at least two of them with experience in these issues.

Edited by - Victor on 08-10-2003 04:01:37

LAST QUESTIONS:


1.as far as i understood the problem is that reynen tried to copyright his mod or parts of it, which ms won't allow, right?
2.now i don't see the problem: if it is not allowed at all why is there a possibility to copyright it?? (or maybe i'm just stupid??)
3. what could happen to STARFYRE...
4.has something like this happened to other modders before (maybe they could give us some hints/support)

Sir Spectre, technically, that might work. However, if Reynen was willing to inflame others just to see where they stood, i do not know if that would put an end to the complaints. Inflaming others just so you can polarise them into "them" or "us", which according to his statements, was what he was doing, indicates a lack of respect of the freedom of choice to the other modders. If what he said is true, then this is an attempt to force the FL mod community into 2 seperate groups of Starfyre supporters and MS supporters.

I don't really believe that polarising the FL community would be constructive or conducive to making good mods in the future. If you really want to garner support from the other modders, a friendly approach has always worked best. However, by throwing that away with a hostile approach only serves to worsen the situation. Has no one learned from the Isreal-Palestine issue? We are all people and by continuing to lash out at others just to force their allegiences will result in building on the spite and hatred others have. Is the destruction of the FL community worth it?

Sorry for not providing a lot of legal information over this issue but i feel that it would cause even more spite than what this post might result in. I'll stop my preaching now and continue modding.

Lead by example Reynen, be the first to jump off the soapbox.