Good post... I agree with your comments.

I'll buy that for a dollar.
I agree.

OK, the mouse control scheme in Freelancer works fine for most people. A significant minority have had problems using it because they can't let go of their training using inverted mouse schemes in other games, and I had trouble with it at first due to performance problems on my machine. I've been using mouse control in other space sims on and off for the past year ever since the USB port died on one of my computers. And as I said before it works fine, even if it is a little more abstract and a little less engaging.

But please tell me you aren't arguing that mouse control in Freelancer was chosen because it's more realistic than joystick. About the only realistic part of Freelancer's space travel is that the planets are the right shape -- they're spherical. Everything else is a world of pure imagination. So, in this game that is obviously designed to be a fun and lite (as in beer) take on space combat and exploration, you think that Digital Anvil really sat down and said, "we can't include joystick support because it wouldn't be realistic?"

First, there are perfectly good design reasons for using fixed mount weapons, the main one being that they can be protected behind a thicker layer of armor than if they are placed in exposed turrets. If the space ship also has to fly through the atmosphere at high speed (as these ships seem to do) there are aerodynamic concerns as well. Large articulated turrets would be a source of drag and turbulence, and wind forces would place a great deal of stress on the swivel mounts.

Second, there is no special reason why a joystick can not be used to steer a ship with swiveling turrets, even in a game. After all, modern attack helicopters use this very design and are controlled in flight by a collective that works much like a joystick. One good way to solve this design is to use turrets that can automatically track the designated target. For a bit more tactical depth, you could even switch the turrets into a point defense mode where they automatically choose their own targets based on threat level, just like a Phalanx CIWS minigun on a US Navy destroyer.

In short, I respectfully disagree with your opinion. I can definitely imagine a game design that would not work with a joystick - I would never want to use one to play Homeworld, for example - but based on the demo missions, Freelancer isn't such a game.

--milo
www.starshatter.com

Mouse control rocks. Period.

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One of the important reasons for the mouse interface is our desire to make a highly accessible game that could reach a wide audience. Just about everyone who owns a PC also has a mouse, but many people don't own joysticks or don't feel very comfortable using one. Given how relatively few games require a joystick interface, most of today's game players are simply much better at using the mouse to click on things rather than maneuvering with a joystick. Freelancer always intended to bring a new audience to the genre, and the mouse interface allows players that don't own or use a joystick to engage and succeed in the epic-scale space battles that Freelancer offers.

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Milo, this is from Jorg's journal regarding the interface. I think the comment "Freelancer always intended to bring a new audience to the genre" pretty much sums it up. The game will not support joysticks, and debating the point is kinda senseless. I'll leave the thread open for now, but if it becomes another hissy fit parade about the joystick saga......I'll "clork" it right away.

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The Next Thing I Say To You Will Be True
The Last Thing I Said Was False

Boscoe, thanks for the quote. Actually, I'm well aware of the history behind the design decisions, and the controversy. No doubt that it's a tough call - I've had this conversation with other developers myself and not everyone agrees on the right way to go.

My opinion is that if you are trying to broaden the market for space sims, it would be better to include as many control options as you can, including keyboard, mouse, joystick, and gamepad. Personally, I'd much rather field a customer service call from a confused gamer wondering how to reverse the fourth axis on his UberGameGear and have him go away happy, than have to tell him "sorry, your favorite toy is not supported, but you will get used to playing the game the way I do." However, I also understand the power of the marketing argument to keep things simple.

My only point was that of all the reasons for choosing mouse control instead of joystick, realism is the least credible in Freelancer's case. I'm not saying this because I'm clairvoyant and just happen to know that in 1100 years, humans will still be piloting spaceships with joysticks. I'm saying this because no other part of the game bears more than a tenuous relationship to reality. I just can't believe that the developers would suddenly decide to dig in their heels and pick mouse over any other control scheme because they thought it was more "realistic" to fly that way.

If I have in any way misinterpreted or misrepresented the intent of the original poster's statement, I do apologize.

--milo
www.starshatter.com

"Boscoe, thanks for the quote. Actually, I'm well aware of the history behind the design decisions, and the controversy. No doubt that it's a tough call - I've had this conversation with other developers myself and not everyone agrees on the right way to go."



It dont matter whether ya agree if its the right way to go, you didnt make the game. You can go out and make your own game and then decide whats the right way to go. To think that your some how special, or that you know better then DA and thier hundreds of beta testers is rediculous. If you hate it that much, dont play it, but stop bothering all of us with the nonsense.

No, you're right on that one Milo. Realism wasn't part of the design decision, larger audience was. DA had tried a few times to implement j/s support, but found it just didn't work well with the way the interface progressed. I guess it was a matter of changing the interface and having 50/50 support, neither good nor bad for either, or keep tweaking the interface for the larger audience (the mouse) and abandon the joystick support.

Edit: Dragoro, Chill out!!! Milo made some very good points and wasn't bashing the game.

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The Next Thing I Say To You Will Be True
The Last Thing I Said Was False

Edited by - Boscoe on 28-02-2003 02:55:46

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It dont matter whether ya agree if its the right way to go, you didnt make the game. You can go out and make your own game and then decide whats the right way to go.

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True, true. My opinion isn't going to affect DA's design process. And true, I do get to decide how to implement the control scheme in my own game. In Freelancer's honor, I've even added a "virtual joystick" style of mouse control to the "mouse look" control I had already implemented. Of course, I also support joysticks and gamepads as I outlined above. I'm not sure why you think this is relevant to the discussion, however.

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To think that your some how special, or that you know better then DA and thier hundreds of beta testers is rediculous. If you hate it that much, dont play it, but stop bothering all of us with the nonsense.

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Sorry if I've upset you by stating my opinion in a discussion forum. Actually, I don't hate the game, and have even defended DA's decision to focus on mouse support before.

--milo
www.starshatter.com

This right here:

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By Dragoro

It dont matter whether ya agree if its the right way to go, you didnt make the game. You can go out and make your own game and then decide whats the right way to go. To think that your some how special, or that you know better then DA and thier hundreds of beta testers is rediculous. If you hate it that much, dont play it, but stop bothering all of us with the nonsense.

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THAT is PRECISELY what people are talking about when they say that the "regulars" here are rude, insulting, and should be told to watch their attitudes!
At least Boscoe had the sense to say something this time, and I thank him for it!

Some people around here only seem to post when they get to use their apparently favourite phrase "dont play it, but stop bothering all of us with the nonsense".

Have a nice day,

PD

Edited by - Pyrate Dredd on 28-02-2003 03:56:00

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Mouse control rocks. Period.

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Nuff said!

`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`


Rogue Squadron: The True Force in the Galaxy!

Sorry if I created some confusion. I definitely don't think DA did the mouse thing for realism, I think it was done because it fit into their gameplay design best.

Anyway, I guess my main point is that maybe I'd like to see more experimental control schemes in some types of sims.

In reality, you can't really make the argument about realism because there are so many other unreal aspects of the game. Either way, I give DA some credit for coming up with a somewhat different approach and making it work.

Think this has gone on enough. Milo, good to hear from you again, and yes, Milo has been around for a while, and I remember talking with you before about mapping a virtual joystick. Let us know how that works out for you, I'm kinda curious myself. As for this thread..."click"

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The Next Thing I Say To You Will Be True
The Last Thing I Said Was False