I keep saying that FL and ALL mods dont have newtonian physics not because i am ignorant... i keep saying it because its a plain simple fact
if you tell me a mod which can do that in ur oppinion then tell me and i will prove you wrong

newtonian physics cover stuff that was never planned to be in FL - there are not even values for that

That is what is covered by newtonian physics:
1. Scaling and Order-of-Magnitude Estimates
2. Velocity and Relative Motion
3. Acceleration and Free Fall
4. Force and Motion
5. Analysis of Forces
6. Newton's Laws in Three Dimensions
7. Vectors
8. Vectors and Motion
9. Circular Motion
10. Gravity

the size of a system has absolutly nothing to do with newtonian laws and the time to travel is also irrelevant coz you always could take a giant system, reduce it to sectors and jump between those sectors... or you could raise the speed.... or you could create inner system jumps
in the end i can imagine various ways to realize that - even jumps to a new sector as soon you reach the borders of the map (even if this would involve some deeper coding)

but like i said before... it doesnt matter... FL is a dying game (with no good physics IMO)... and there is no FL2 and no FL licence
the physics are like the are and like ive stated several times before i can accept that ppl like it like it is
but again it does not deny that it could have been done even better or in case of an imaginary FL2 it should be done better (and it doesnt have to be newtonian at all costs, just better than it is now)
what i dont agree is that ppl state that the FL physics are the non-plus-ultra and that besides that nothing better can exist
the irony in all this is that in several post it was said that several "normal" things such as maneuvers are not possible in FL... and this alone means the physics are limited
and that is what i have stated in first place... this is how this discussion started (on that other thread)... not more... not less

Your claims about newtonian physics are ridiculous.

First you have to know what is meant by "newtonian physics". We here are only discussion the flight-model which has nothing to do with scaling for example.

The only thing FL doesnt feature is gravity, all other things are possible within the engine. But then again, you can write a mod without planets, that gets rid of the gravity issue (and scaling issues btw.)

Of course FL has not been designed for newtonian physics in the end, but because it was a gameplay decision.
That does not mean that the engine is not able to support newtonian physics.
Actually, without the source you cannot say **** about FLs physics engine.

So why are we having another senseless physics discussion here?...

Edited by - w0dk4 on 7/4/2007 7:18:23 AM

ungh... so you're saying when i bounce off something at a complementary angle to my original vector, that is not newtonian? or when i enter a drag modifier zone and my ship slows down, that is my imagination? if i change the mass of my ship without changing the engine force and it takes forever to reach my maximum speed of F over D that is not acceleration? if an explosion with impulse hits me and I fly off at a new vector isn't it the sum of my previous vector and the impulse force's vector?

i asked if you're ignorant because FL's apparent lack of physics can be 'fixed' very quickly by removing any drag and using appropriate scaling on engine forces and ship masses. the result is a ship that 'flies' like a hovercraft, in a very frustrating newtonian way. the only thing you've listed that i can certify is not present is gravity, and IMO its really not a big deal with it being a very weak force and FL having no atmospheric combat.

the size of systems DOES have to do with newtonian laws -> if you have to account for acceleration and braking times when navigating you'll find that getting around is quite a pain in the butt, not to mention attempting to lock vectors with an enemy (dogfighting would not work in space - that little bit of reality may have escaped you)

also what's relative motion got to do with anything(i mean, what would you use it for)? unless you're battling at near lightspeeds (drool... hehe) frames of reference/time dilation are not a problem that pilots would need to consider

FL is dying? uh huh - just like deus ex and quake and unreal and allegiance and bridge commander and kotor are all utterly dead, and every other kickass game ever made... heh. FL will die when someone makes a new peristent-universe spacesim with good action, fair trading, an engaging SP mode and free multiplayer for a nominal retail price. So, we'll be waiting.

Good games don't die young.

---

That does not mean that the engine is not able to support newtonian physics.
Actually, without the source you cannot say **** about FLs physics engine.

---

yes - we cannot say
we are dealing with speculations again and we most likely will never find out
but considering that there not no redundant value somewhere i consider it more likely that it never was part of that engine
well - who knows... honestly im not even interested in that... I dont care about if gravity was planned or not... its not there

cv - newtonian means that all of those 10 points are covered and that they are balanced in a realistic way... if you find a game that covers newtonian physics than its comparable with a lottery jackpot

and gravity is not the only issue where FL has its problems
the size of the systems is unimportant... only the size of the objects is important since you can simulate distances between those objects very easily in the above stated ways
i could create a system with a giant earth.. and i could create a system with a giant jupiter... and i could jump from earth to jupiter... the distance between those is not important
and newtons laws are more about mass than size

that FL is slowly dying is no big secret since the numbers of players are decreasing and many servers almost empty these days and i have my doubts that this will stop any time soon
considering the numbers of players 1 year ago this is a pretty fast process
but like you said... we are waiting

Wouldn't you know it...
Just when I get ready to release a mod...there's hardly a population any longer.
Just my speed and just my luck.

as they say: "A day late and a dollar short"

why does everyone think their mod is going to beat all? i know you haven't played them all, so how could you know?

what would reverse or arrest the acknowledged trend is if the best modders with the greatest range of abilities came together and made an unofficial patch that essentially replaced the game. since we're not really coming together on this like other communities have, then we're just having fun - not trying to save the world. geeze

just a few thoughts on the whole physics and death tangent of this thread

Star Trek Next gen was never realistic and as for physic's well that show ignored them as it saw fit -- and yet it employed people from JPL to help them craft a realistic surrounding world to enhance the overall experience

This is what freelancer should do -- use the interesting things around the objects in space and such to bring the Mods closer to reality

Ignore the basic physic's and strive towards a more realistic reality surrounding -- to take the edge off the arcade type play style

As for freelancer is dying well -- I think you have a large single player community I am for one -- I saw a post from discovery's forums that thier mod was downloaded about 11 k times and most of those I think were sp's -- I know this dosent do the server group alot of good --

but online game play for an older audience can be " difficut " ( leave it at that ) -- and also Wives -- kids -- dogs -- Work -- Lives can interfere with accessing a server and playing outright

I myself am slowly working my way thru Frontier space 1.5 and having loads of Fun -- exploring and trading -- I Have played thru Crossfire ( dangerous and fun and complex ) tekagi's ( neat scenery and ships ) and have also done the Monkey Universe ( great music and nice systems ) and Discovery a very nice classic freelancer and sampled a few other's -- takes me about 3 months to work thru a mod

Idea of sorts -- could a patch be written so that when you went thru a jump gate you would jump to a different server ?? to Combine up the various online groups

This would enhance the unified Mod theory -- the great mods combining together to form a much larger aspect of the community

People are not going to come together for a few simple reasons.
Globally, they're too spread out and are not willing to listen.
Everybody wants to be the President, or the CEO, or the Head of something other than their own posterior.

In short, this community will never pull together.

Rankor's right,this was suggested and as normal for this community it was shot down in a blaze in about 2 seconds by a few people.

I'd love to see the major mod makers get together and do as CV said...but it's not likely to happen as ego's will get in the way again.

Now what if.....uh wait, brain fart sorry.
Now if only the engine can....wait, another brain fart sorry.
Now only if the community can....man brain farts attacking me today.

If you want to relate to a somewhat realistic show of concepts, I refer you to have a look at the Movie, "2001: A Space Odessy" .
In space, you can hear NOTHING. So, anything that produces a sound in space is pure nonsense anyway and anyhow. The movie took advantage of this fact. The greater cinematics of this movie used music rather than sound effects.

I doubt that this is ego-related
It often has to do with time problems due to already running projects and too different oppinions about how a mod should be

not to mention that a "best" mod does not exist and will never exist
they are all different and offer much more than a single mod ever can do

I think it is in part actually "ego" related since most mod makers (and wannabe's) have their own "fantastic" "Greatest" "uber" beat everybody else's idea. Granted, some of them are very good ideas and many others are just plain too off the wall. Many have good ideas but want other people with the "know how" to do it all for them. (Personally, this is why I don't work for anybody else any longer and work by/for myself) . Many people don't like "constructive" critisism and don't waste a second to thoroughly cuss you out in public forums.
If a mod maker wannabe wants to make a decent mod, they had better learn how to do it without all the mistakes that I've seen them do all too often. In other words, they had better take the time to learn how to do it right to begin with. If they're going to pool a bunch of rookies together who don't know the difference between east and west orientation, I guarantee you that they're going to be building a major crash prone disaster.

Fact is, players aren't limited to being relegated to just one server. That's what "mods" are all about. The problem for that matter then, is inter-mod compatability.
Another big problem I often see is a true lack of imagination and "outside the box" thinking. Making Freelancer more (let's say) "lifelike" rather than "realistic" .
It's rather ludicrous to have space ships performing the acrobatic manuvers that air flight models use. In space, travel tends to be "linear" based on momentum regardless of the ships orientation unless forces are applied that changes it's direction of travel. However, using this particular method of reality would tend to drive the average gamer away simply because it's "dull" or "too difficult" in comparison to what they are use to. (ease of play) "PLAY" .
Simulation isn't play, it's realism.
Honestly, most gamers have no clue what-so-ever about the true realities of space physics. They are more interested in the "action" the game gives them. Sometimes, a few become inspired to make their own personal "additions" to an existing mod and without any clue as to how to do it...ending up with a total mess.

I remember somewhat broaching on a subject of inter-server "hand-offs" which would actually expand the Freelancer Universe to a much larger and broader scale. This project would require several servers running "compatable" & inter-related mods.
This can be a somewhat daunting task and very difficult (if not impossible) proposition since every mod builders talents might be limited to what they have learned to do with what they have. In such a case as this, everyone involved would have to be equally skilled and adept. To be certain, everyone involved would absolutely be required to use the exact same tools in the development.
Mind you, it is not impossible to do...but I hate to say that there are too many "individuals" with their own ideas about how things "should" be done and are just not willing to adapt to using the tools necessary to do the job right in the first place. A dang good example of this is 3D Studio Max vs Milkshape.
Too many "chiefs" and too few indians.
It would require a rather ingenious and inventive cooperation of several people working on different projects, but focused on the overall unified end product.

If you want realistic space physics, find an engine that will support it and develop it. However, it's not going to really be a "game" as you would want to call it, but rather a "simulation" since the "gaming" aspects will be non-existent.

the barrel roll thing seems way to fakey to fit in the game,to me
in order to do a move like that you need gravity, an atmosphere, and friction from the atmosphere
all of which only appear on planets not in space

so again it brings you back t the how much realism you want debate, doesn't it?