Deism is a religion/philosophy that states you can't believe anyone else's religious expirence. It's difficult to tell, for instance, between a man who has spoken with God and a man who is totally insane and believes he speaks to god. therefore, there is no revealed religion. The only insight into the divine possible is through examining creation, much like one gains insight into the mind of the author of a book by reading that author's work. If you want a really good summary of it, look at www.religioustolerance.org and their article on Deism.

Christianity doesn't ask you to believe in other people's experiences either, it provides the material to belive in God. You can still be credulous of others. For instance, its no secret that certain men have sought the power of church rather than the faith of it. I'd be credulous of them talking to God.

As for the founding fathers, I KNOW at least some of them were not Deists. From reading letters and reasonings they gave about the framing of our constitution where God was mentioned in very Christian ways. Perhaps some of the compromises were Deist in nature, but seeing as I did excel at history back in school, if Deism was a major part of our framework, I would have heard something about it. Deism didn't even come up in my 3 Theology classes or my 2 Philosophy classes in college.

As for the Masonic, we still have few Masonic groups today here in the US. However, I had at one point read exactly where the symbols came from and Masonic was not part of the reasons. I wish I had a better memory for specifics, but I do know that we borrowed symbols from past great civilizations not groups. The Eagle is from Roman Empire, we have Greek architecture in Washington D.C., the eye on the pyramid, while maybe used in Masonic rituals (or whatever they do) probably borrowed from the same place as did the US derive it's symbol.

I am currently reading Greek Art & Architecture, then I will read Roman Art, then I was going to read Ancient Egyptian. I will see if there is anything there, because I do recall an Art class I had that mentioned the Eye over the pyramid coming from one of the Kingdoms of Ancient Egypt. This is why I continue my readings on my own, to refresh and concrete my memory.

Spectre

Edit: BTW, for you fellow Americans, did you know that the "bust" (head and shoulder marble statues) used for some of the founding fathers was not actually a Greek idea, which most people believe. The Greeks only had full bodied statues. It wasn't until the Romans that the "bust" was created from Greek stylizations of full statues.

Edited by - Spectre-Man on 21-06-2003 09:20:29

Are we getting off topic? The thread I suppose does allow a certain leeway, but we've completely lost the Freelancer part of it.

So here's my part. Has anyone ever seen a .wav file extractor for Privateer 1 so we can take out the Retros in-combat speak? Because I would LOVE to insert them into Freelancer. They were FUN to toast! I wouldn't mind devoting to them a whole faction and system all to themselves, like they had been Technological Pilgrims fleeing from Technology when they had to leave Earth. And I'd call the planet they settled on Plymouth Rock. The Retros would probably be best buds with the Gaians. On the other hand, maybe they would be very competitive.

Spectre

Edited by - Spectre-Man on 21-06-2003 09:26:04

Christianity DOES demant its followers accept the religious expirence of another - specifically, Christ. Christ walks out of the desert one day, gets his cousin to dunk him in a river, and declares he has a particular knowledge of God. Even if you accept Christ as a historical figure (in my opinion it would be foolish not to), there is no way to validate Christ's statements about his knowledge. That's ok for Christians; faith and all that. Deism is just looking for something different.

As for founding fathers being Christian... which ones? Jefferson wasn't. Paine wasn't, nor Adams nor Madison. Those guys were heavily involved in the ideology and execution of the Revolution, and in the framing of the Constitution and Presidency. You don't get more "Founding" than that. It may be fair to call America a "Christian nation" in terms of its cultural extraction. Like it or not, Europe is heavily Christian in its history and culture and that was shipped to the New World with everything else. But to talk about America as religiously Christian is, in my opinion, a terrible oversimplification.

As for this being off topic, I'm firmly convinced that SciFi is supposed to facilitate these sorts of discussions. So lets keep talking as long as anyone's interested!

Good greif Charlie Brown.............Look While I can respect all points on relig.
the point is, THIS IS A GAME, In the light of the world it really dosen't matter
what relig. was were fist and who brought it to who or who was who or whose on fisrt. This is a subject that will not be resolved cause ever person or group or what not is correct as far as their belief, now to hopefully not start anything but
most relig. in the world share several key points to morallity, but this is not the place nor the time....... Enjoy the game but its just a game.......

Zeta-13 (space for rent)

Sience can proof by calculations that a theory is wrong end of story, relgion cant show that one's fait is wrong nor proof them selfs right. So pepole keep arguing about it, or even worse they start a war on it. In wich sience is used to fight it. Wich is a darker side of sience but but when a relligion is used for a war then its no longer about the religion, then its about power, and the religious leaders get that by using theire relgion to justifie theire actions. That is what is wrong whit religion.

and to extend Cynicism's observations further, any future spacefaring society will be essentially American and will no doubt take American cultural values inc. attitudes towards religion with it, so therefore the topic is relevant.

Back to Freemason's; Masonic lore goes back to Thoth-Amun/Hermes trismegistus the Egyptian moon god and giver of wisdom and hidden knowledge(see not just FS2 Vasudan fighters!) I went to the library today and looked up some references to America's Founding Father's.. surprise surprise they were mostly Freemasons. As was the architect who designed Washington DC. As were many of their friends and fellow-travellers in the French revolution.

OK i can't resist this. Benjamin Franklin gleefully recorded the following event (possibly apocryphal) that when the King of France was guillotined, a man jumped onto the platform and shouted out "Jacques de Molay, you are avenged!"

..you think you're done with the past; but the past isn't done with you..

Cynicism:

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Christianity DOES demant its followers accept the religious expirence of another - specifically, Christ.

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Okay, you're right. I was thinking from a modern standpoint where we can talk to God or Chirst, not from the stand point where we have to accept the man Jesus as Christ.

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As for founding fathers being Christian... which ones? ..... But to talk about America as religiously Christian is, in my opinion, a terrible oversimplification.

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First of all I said SOME, not all were Christian. And I wasn't trying to simplify anything, I was adding to a fact. Don't change the meaning of what I write. As for Christians: Washington, Hancock (I know he didn't form the constitution, but he was a Revolutionary), Hamilton, Gorham, & King; I think also Langdon, Johnson, Sherman, Mifflin, Pinkney, Fitzsimmons, & a few others as well, but I can't recall specifically those lesser known ones.

Tawakalna:

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I went to the library today and looked up some references to America's Founding Father's.. surprise surprise they were mostly Freemasons. As was the architect who designed Washington DC.

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That is info, I was never taught, nor had interest to lookup. But I question how much they were influenced by the Freemasons. A man who joins a union today may be required to do so to become employed or it is expected of him by fellow employees. It doesn't necessarily mean he agrees or is heavily influenced by the union. My point is just because they belong, jumping to the conclusion they were automatically influenced by it doesn't seem right.

Also, the founders had to come to compromises then just as today we sometimes have to put certain beliefs aside in order to come to compromises on our efforts. In addition, we did split with England and probably in most cases its groups which may have had too much influence, we didn't end up like Canada where the British influence was still strongly felt.

As for the architect may have been a Freemason (taking your word for it), but Greek architecture is Greek architecture. A Christian contractor can build a Synagogue, it doesn't mean there will be Christian influences. They borrowed from great civilizations, because the United States was to be one in their hopes. I'll grant that influences of Freemasons could have snuck in, but that was not the focus of the borrowing of symbols.

Spectre

EDIT: My quote marks were misalligned.

Edited by - Spectre-Man on 21-06-2003 20:49:38

In addition to my last post about Freemasons. I am reminded of a Monty Python skit about a "tall" archaeologist (John Cleese) digging in the ground. He finds one pot from somewhere then exclaims something like "A Chinese pot from the fourth dynasty, this is the crucial link to prove there was a chinese cultural influence in Mesopatamia." Then he starts to sing. (I don't think he said Chinese, I can't remember what civilization it was).

The point is, one smegging pot doesn't signify a whole cultural influence.

Spectre

Sorry. No religious discussions. You can talk about how games use religion and such like this thread started off but now its just about religion itself.