Not as open ended as it could have been

Thu May 01, 2003 7:15 pm by Lendorien

I recently bought Freelancer, and simply loved it. I love the SP storyline and the whole concept of a space based rpg in the tradition of Privateer.

To my chagrin, however, after completing the SP storyline and delving deep into the exploration of the rest of the game world, I realized just how superficial the game is. For those of us not into Multiplayer, the freelance game after the single player mission is completed has very little replay value. The game consists of flying around and killing everything that moves, and the missions you can get bounties on consist of... killing everything that moves.

Freelancer is a good game in concept, but with a little more time and foresight, it could have been a great game. Here’s what the game desperately needs in a patch or expansion.

1. Expand the types of missions you can run. There are any number of ideas you could use.

Some examples:
-Convoy missions, where the goal is “Meet convoy Y at Manhattan and escort it to California.”
-Attack and destroy convoy Y before it reaches its destination (which means there is a possibility of failure that may affect status with a particular group)
-Deliver cargo X to target Y (another ship or a station).
-Distract or destroy authorities to allow illegal convoys through a patrol or blockade.
-Missions to find a jumphole or planets or particular bases, or perhaps even wrecks of particular ships.

2. Make the game world more responsive to the actions of the player. I want the news reports to reflect how I affect the game world. If I take out 10 convoys in the Manhattan System, there should be news reports on nearby stations that talk about the rash of piracy. If I destroy 150 Liberty Rogues, then there should be less Lib Rogues in the area for a while and news reports that mention it. It probably should go farther than this, so far as to even affect political reports. If you take a bunch of missions to knock off head honchos of the Blood Dragons, the news reports should talk about new offensives, with political stoolies taking credit for it and such. As it is now, the player has almost no affect on the game world, and it kills any sort of feel of imersivness.

3. More secrets and goodies would have been wonderful. Most would agree that (the wreck of a certain famous ship that shall not be named) was a neat treat because it added depth and history to the game world and was a interesting thing to discover. We need more of this type of thing, side quests, unusual things to see that are talked about in rumors. You could even have missions based on this concept. For example, “Mollies want you to find the X and return with the coordinates.” Add in rumors and hearsay in bars and you add a lot more depth to the universe. “I heard about this pirate battleship that was destroyed two hundred years ago. Supposedly its out in the Regel cloud somewhere. Someone could turn it into a base or something if they knew where it was...”

4. A medal system with the various factions would have been a great idea. If each faction had a number of medals (or other rewards) you could win for helping them out and running missions, it would greatly expand the playability. There are no goals really after you beat the SP missions except to get the best ship and discover everything. Medals would give players incentive to try and do missions for a more tangible reward than loot and money.

Of course, saying this is all good and fine, but unless modders get really ambitious, I doubt we’ll see even one of these things added to the game. Bummer.

Edited by - Lendorien on 01-05-2003 20:23:37

Thu May 01, 2003 7:40 pm by cavok7

Good ideas Lendorien. I especially agree with your point #2. The actions of a player should be acknowledged in some fashion both on the news board and with the NPCs. If you just finished killing 100 Red Hessians and dock at a Corsair base, a parade or celebration would be great, but hey, even just having one of them buying you a beer in the bar would be nice ;-)

Thu May 01, 2003 8:35 pm by Stinger

@Lendorien...

It been said before many time here...you get out of the game what you put into it. Many people believe Privateer should be used as a litmus test for games that take place in space. The only thing that Privateer has on Freelancer it the number of systems. But when you take into consideration the number of hidden items, races you can run into, numbers of bases/planets/asteroid fields/Suns/and not to mentino the amount of jump holes then Freelancer is far and away much better in terms of content than Privateer ever could be.

To see a topic titled "not as open ended as it could have been" could be sai about every single game ever made on all platforms. The fact that there's been so much discussion about what FL "could have been" is remarkable since it obviously piqued the curiosity of enough people to spend the time to talk about it here. I think FL stands on it's own and if you are disappointed or discouraged about it "content"...you get out of Freelancer (or any game for that matter) EXACTLY what you put into it. I mean besides the fact that many people have come and gone from here saying the same thing about FL content leads me to believe the game hit a chord with people. That is always a good thing. If FL was a waste of money then the discussions would NEVER continue...people would just stop playing it/buying it and it would slip into obscurity like many game have is the past. (i.e. anyone every played the game "Survivor," now that game REALLY had zero content)

Rob "Stinger" Lordier
Moderator - Lancers Reactor
Creator Privateer FAQ
no good deed will ever go unpunished

Thu May 01, 2003 8:47 pm by Gig

I think exploration is the point of the huge gameworld. I haven't touched a mission since I finished SP, I just look for wrecks and I'm having a blast.

And why would not having an impact on the gameworld affect your immersion level? That's just realistic, most people don't have a noticeable effect on the world. Most people can't get the recognition they deserve even if they do something that actually does have a major effect.

Let's face it, most of us don't see ourselves in the news everyday.

Thu May 01, 2003 11:16 pm by Doyler

I think most people just did the SP storyline and none of them went of and did missions for the factions on their own unless they needed to. I think FL was desgined to let you explore the new universe at your own time. Do the SP storyline when you want or if you want just go and blow stuff up. And as for open endedness. Im still in liberty and Im lost. Somewhere in the cali systems.

----------------------------------------
I think Im dumb, maybe just happy - Kurt cobain

Fri May 02, 2003 1:37 am by Lendorien

Hmmm. Maybe I came off as if I was bashing Freelancer. In a way I suppose I was, because it was billed as far more imersive than I found it to be.After 45 hours of game time, I’ve fouind all there is to find. There are no goals, no reasons to keep playing... that’s why I made my suggestions. Together, they’d make the playablity far longer than it currently is.

Now granted, I don’t expect any of these additions to be made, at least not with the current game, but I thought I’d bring it up to spark discussion. Some seem to have taken it the wrong way.

I think exploration is the point of the huge gameworld. I haven't touched a mission since I finished SP, I just look for wrecks and I'm having a blast.

And why would not having an impact on the gameworld affect your immersion level? That's just realistic, most people don't have a noticeable effect on the world. Most people can't get the recognition they deserve even if they do something that actually does have a major effect.
Let's face it, most of us don't see ourselves in the news everyday.

I like to explore too. In fact, since shortly after the single player campaign, that’s all I’ve pretty much done. But I also like the idea of missions. I'd do them more often if it weren’t that the missions are so boring.

Why are the boring? Because they’re repetative. There’s basically only one mission, “Go to sector X and kill person Y.”

A wider variation of missions would give players more reason to try them out. Throw in rewards other than money (like medalks or ranks) and you increase the playability of the missions. It would be neat to have to find X wreck for an employer, or escort a convoy through 3 systems, or retrieve item Y from Planet Q. The point is to increase replayability. These things would give player incentive to keep playing missions, just to see what was out there and make some money doing it.

As for your next point, sure, most people in the real world don’t make a huge impact on the world. But this is a game. The whole SP mission has you as the player doing exactly that, making a huge impact.

Why would it be beyond the realm of possibility to have a player continue to impact the game world in tangable and game changing ways? If the player can change the game environment by his/her actions, it gives them more incentive to continue trying to change the evironment just to see what can happen. Let the economies fluctuate if too many diamonds go to new Tokyo. Let my hunting down of 200 blood Dragons affect the news items.

It makes the player feel like he/she is having an impact on the game and is part of the universe, rather than simply a sprite flying around in a static environment. Botton line, it makes the experiance more REAL.

That’s why a game like Morrowind was such a hit, because that game did change the world and people based on what you did. It’s also why massively MP games are so popular. People really can have an effect on the game world and people around them in those games.

I don’t think it’s a goal that shouldn’t be strived for in single player games.

It been said before many time here...you get out of the game what you put into it. Many people believe Privateer should be used as a litmus test for games that take place in space. The only thing that Privateer has on Freelancer it the number of systems. But when you take into consideration the number of hidden items, races you can run into, numbers of bases/planets/asteroid fields/Suns/and not to mentino the amount of jump holes then Freelancer is far and away much better in terms of content than Privateer ever could be.

I did not mean to imply that Privateer is better than Freelancer.

I only meant that I liked the idea of a game that followed the ideas forwarded by Privateer. Freelancer is a far better game for numerous reasons. I won’t argue that Privateer is a better game than Freelancer, because I don’t believe that it is. You misunderstood me, though I could have phrased myself wrong.

To see a topic titled "not as open ended as it could have been" could be said about every single game ever made on all platforms. The fact that there's been so much discussion about what FL "could have been" is remarkable since it obviously piqued the curiosity of enough people to spend the time to talk about it here. I think FL stands on it's own and if you are disappointed or discouraged about it "content"...you get out of Freelancer (or any game for that matter) EXACTLY what you put into it. I mean besides the fact that many people have come and gone from here saying the same thing about FL content leads me to believe the game hit a chord with people. That is always a good thing. If FL was a waste of money then the discussions would NEVER continue...people would just stop playing it/buying it and it would slip into obscurity like many game have is the past. (i.e. anyone every played the game "Survivor," now that game REALLY had zero content)

I agree with you, up to a point. I suppose my topic title was poorly chosen.

The argument “You get out of it what you put into it” can be used to justify putting mud in a box and selling it.

“It’s mud!”

Sure, but you get out of it what you put into it. The fact of the matter, all that most people are going to get out of a box of mud is mud. The trick is to make that mud appeal to the most number of people in ways that will make them want to keep coming back to that mud. Make it diferent colors, include mud squishers, whatever it takes.

The same goes for games. The more playability and replayability, the more money a company makes through sales of the original product and add ons. I mean, look at Half-Life or Starcraft. They both broke new ground in a myriad of different ways, and the games are still selling copies in fantastic numbers.

It’s in a company’s best interest to make a product reach its full potential, because if done well and with a product the public wants (a Freelancer type game), it can be a gold mine.

Freelancer has a lot of great stuff, but I feel it missed the mark on the imersion bit, and that’s why, I think Freelancer will not last as long on the shelves as some other games like Half-life. It certainally isn't all of what it bills itself to be on the official website.

In the end, it's an opinion and not an attack on any person. I'm sorry if my original post came off that way.

Edited by - Lendorien on 02-05-2003 02:45:01

Fri May 02, 2003 2:08 am by GodSpeed

actually most people buy Half-Life for the mods and is still the best game for modding. but FreeLancer is probably one of the best new games ive seen in terms of modibility. just look on the FreeLancer editing forum or in the downloads section of the site, there are already over fifty mods just on this site (and even more in development). Half-Life didnt really take over the multiplayer market until CS, DoD, and FA came out. i think that if Gooseman created a mod for this game, it would end HL's reign over the multiplayer realm.

BUT he isnt ever going to make a mod for FreeLancer (although i wish he would

). but i have just as high hopes for the modders working hard here. so ill leave on a note that if you look at the short term life of FreeLancer, it looks like its gonna be a black hole. but if you look at the long term life of the game, i can see mods coming out worthy of selling.

----

"Only the dead have seen the end of War."
- Plato

Fri May 02, 2003 3:11 am by junglejim

I've just finished the single player game and was impressed with the plot/story. I'd heard from people saying they'd finished the story in under two days,-probably doable if you played constantly, so i was pleased to find out it was longer than i thought. Space is layed out very well and travel is easy. Sound effects and ambient music are good but didn't like the 'mix n' match' voice acting.Graphics pretty good, and in many respects the game is quality. I also however soon lost interest in doing missions....if i wasn't already spending enough time killing Hessians,Mollys,outcasts,Gaians ect, then why,when im already a millionaire would i want to accept even highly paid missions to go and kill more? I have all this money and nothing to spend it on! The mission structure didn't help ; I took a gap in the missions at about level 8 , bought a transport and made loads of money trading (aware that i would need lots to buy a great ship when i leveled up). I finished the single player missions to find that when before i was Lev.18 or so, suddenly i was Lev.36 ......purely because i made alot of money earlier! Where's the fun in that!? Trading throughout the missions seems to be a bad idea because the storyline is totally combat orientated and humpbacks are not good against stilettos ! The ability to own more than one ship at a time would have solved this problem. I think those are my main gripes. I see that some modders are trying to improve the variety of missions and encounters which would be great. Why no transport/trade missions? Crazy! Privateer 2's missions had more variety and also the ability to hire wingmen and also escort your own transports. X2 the Threat is only months away and all my trading concerns will be amply catered for. Egosoft have improved so mutch on XTension, with the option to buy capital ships and factorys i'll always have something to spend my creditsss on.

Fri May 02, 2003 7:13 am by PaulH

I think you see a lot of people criticising the game because it is a great game that has a lot of potential. With just a few (minor) little tweaks they could have vastly improved the initial rollout of this game and its frustrating that they didn't do it.

You have to have goals or it will get boring. No one is bored yet, but they will be. Not having ranks like obtaining "ACE" for a certain number of kills, Merchant Prince for delivering X amount of tons, Assassin for completing so many assasination missions, etc. Something as easy and simple establishing threshholds then recognizing the player when he/she meets them is a simple way of setting goals (minor effort) and would have vastly improved the game.

Also, the game is too linear. I mean you HAVE to do the main story or you can't advance in levels. The game dictates to you when you do the missions, at what level you do the missions, and the level you will be when you complete the mission. Why can't I level up outside of the main mission?

Missions aside though, not having ranks/medals/titles or some other form of recognition for the Freelance play was a little short-sited and is frustrating because this is a REALLY cool game.

Fri May 02, 2003 8:30 pm by Chandrasekhar Limit

My $0.02..

The above discussion mentioned Privateer vs. Freelancer. Well, I for one am amazed that a game that was produced 10 years ago and came on just four 1.44MB floppy disks could be so incredibly playable, with so many features that made it even worthy of comparison to something like Freelancer. The fact that Freelancer is being compared to a (very good) 10-year-old game tells us that Microsoft/DA has done a lot of good work on FL... But at the same time also tells us what they haven't done.

In 10 years, with the advancement we have in computing power, 3D graphics, RAM and storage, it would be expected that FL would have a bigger player universe than Privateer with more hidden wrecks, bases, jump holes, factions, whatever. In that respect DA did do a lot of nice things to flesh out FL. In terms of gameplay features however, not only did DA not add anything novel that we already saw in Privateer, they actually took away some features, such as a dynamic economy with fluctuating prices and mission variety.

Let's imagine for a moment that Privateer is a new game that came out just a month ago, but with a gorgeous 3D graphics engine and a bigger player universe with more bases, factions and hidden wrecks made possible by the increased mass storage and computing power we have today (aside from those two things, assume everything else in the game is still the same). I think it would actually be a better game than FL if that was the case.

With that, I'd say that what you get out of a game not only depends on how much you put into it (geeze, Stinger sure made playing a game sound like work!) but also how much the developer puts into it. In that respect I agree with Lendorien-- No matter how much you put into a game, if the game is mud to start with, all you will get out of it is... mud.

Fri May 02, 2003 10:10 pm by junglejim

I was comparing to privateer 2 'The Darkening', I never played the first one ,but have heard it's mutch the same in essence. How old is P2 the darkening? 5-6 years? There are obvious similaritys to freelancer, and the games makers (FL) must have known this so i'm amazed they didn't incorporate more features from Privateer2 like hiring wingmen and freighters and trade missions. I'm sure they would have liked to but not enough time.

Fri May 02, 2003 11:36 pm by Chandrasekhar Limit

Yup, P2 is about that old... It came out in 1996. And I also agree that there are some features from P2 that would have been worthy of incorporation into FL as you mentioned.

FYI, the original Privateer is very different from P2. Different setting (set against the backdrop of the Kilrathi War in the Wing Commander fictional universe), different game mechanics, different atmosphere and ambience.

Definitely give P1 a try if you haven't yet-- It's abandonware and can be downloaded off the web. P2 isn't really a successor to the original Privateer. (Indeed, some consider P2 to be the "bastard child" of Origin's space sims because it was the only one from Origin that had nothing to do with the WC franchise.)

Sat May 03, 2003 4:48 pm by Gig

@Lendorien--You quoted my post as taking what you were saying the wrong way. I'm sorry that it seemed like that... I didn't take your post as an attack on Freelancer as much as I took it as kind of... confusing I guess. You basically said that you played this great game and had great fun and now that it's finally over you feel that the fact that it ended is a development flaw. Every game ends so my interpretation of what you were saying made your post seem somewhat odd.

All open ended games are like this. They are terrific fun while they last but so far no dev has given us any reason to stay in a gameworld indefinitely. The A.I. routines to keep a universe the size of Freelancer dynamic enough to make each day something new hasn't even been invented yet--at least not in a concise enough way to incorporate into game code. That evolutionary step in game design is still aways away I think.

Morrowind is the same way. It has a great story and a huge gameworld to explore but after a while it just falls completely flat. Why? Because the world is huge, but not dynamic. If you burgle a merchant blind she no longer has goods to sell and that makes sense. However, it never changes, once the merchant is stripped of her goods it stays that way no matter how long you wander the vast landscape. Every time you return to that merchant's shop it will be empty and the merchant will be standing there waiting to do business. The merchant never restocks her shelves or closes her doors because you wiped her out and she couldn't cover financially. Once something is done, it's done and it never changes.

Currently all these big open ended games can offer is a world to knock around in after SP for a while and it's a fun thing to do. However, these aren't real worlds and the longer you stay in them the more obvious it becomes. Maybe Freelancer doesn't have all the things you want in a game but you didn't start to feel that way until the game was over. You got 45 hours of enjoyment out of a game... that's how long the game is... it isn't a flaw. :-)

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