Safety in numbers. I suggest this all the time but no one listens ingame: all starfliers in NY should all group up, form up, and move together as a single trading or AI bounty hunting unit.
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Also, the real reason there is a PKing problem in Liberty is because the MAJORITY of starflier newbs seem to sit motionless at Manhattan hoping a high-level player with 1.5 million will fly their way and 'take pity on them' -- or worse, hoping that a mod cheater with a cargo hold full of 9999999999999 cardamine will show up. If the newbs actually played and moved around, they wouldn't be target practice for the higher level pilots. I know, because in my travels in a Starflier I have yet to encounter one of the "known noob killers".

Leechers in Starfliers who ask for cash don't have the right to complain about PKing...they are asking to be shot when they ask for money. Laziness is not something we should be promoting in FL, because laziness leads to modding, the ultimate quick-fix for the impatient.

I have no problems with high levelers offering to newbs, although I strongly recommend that the newbs dont accept and work for their money on their own, which is what FL is all about. And if the newbs sit around Manhattan actively asking for sympathy, they deserve to feel sympathy from the business end of a Skyblast B.

Edited by - Gregstar2k on 11-08-2003 21:50:21

Gregstar2k, I sure hope you're not talking about Elite, or that person pulling the
trigger will feel the business end of the Ban Button.

This whole F1 thing is not needed on Elite, with the No PvP in Liberty rule.
Newbies can level up in Liberty to level 16 rather well, which is where they start to be
strong enough for the 'wild outlands', and when they go there they know what to expect.

Besides, Newbies on Elite usually do NOT beg, half the time they turn down loan offers.

"Got anything for me?" - Trent, A.K.A. 'Mr. Eloquent'

Edited by - Frobozz on 11-08-2003 23:16:39

The point of trade runs is that you do risk losing your cargo from being killed. Otherwise it would be free money. The point of a trade missions isn't to prove you know how to fly from one spot to another, it's to make money if and only if you can make it in one piece. Noobs who are afraid of this should do missions to gain money. It's much less risky.
Another disgusting way to use the F1 cheat is to make people who are personally hostile but not politically to turn nuetral again. This makes raiding storage containers easy, because it can turn a dozen hostile police nuetral. Servers need to watch for people who log in and out a lot, and ban such cheaters.
There's no point to a game where you can't die.

Edited by - BZ on 12-08-2003 04:19:57

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why not just refuse to fight people who do it?

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If you can get enough people to think this way, then this method would be very effective. If clans and communities worked together at giving players like this a "Bad F1 Rep", then that would be cool. If the majority of players feel this behavior is unacceptible, then it will probably go away.

On Browclops, it was an unwritten rule that you do not use bats/bots during consensual duels and was always stated before the duel. It was frowned upon to use them. Bots/Bats were used seldom during random attacks, but mostly during organized battles. The F1 cheat would definately be frowned upon there and few would be willing to duel you if you persistantly used it. The only players that would continue to do this kind of cheating are loners that don't really participate in social groups.

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Jedi Knight II where nearly EVERYONE has rules that force upon you consensual dueling. There is practicaly no such thing as stabbing someone in the back anymore in that game, and I do not want such rules to creep into freelancer. The people who believe PvP duels should be only thing around should be given baby pacifiers before they play because evidently they cant handle the concept of paranoia...

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Amen Bro!!! I can't believe that the Jedi Knight II multi-player community has been ruined by the domination of lame peeps that can't handle player challenge. That sucks. Part of the game is being able to strategise. Consensual dueling is great, but the value of random conflict should not go unrecognized.

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all starfliers in NY should all group up, form up, and move together as a single trading or AI bounty hunting unit.

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I don't think this will work because many times noobs don't know eachother. In addition, safety in numbers works for the individual, but not for the group. More noobs would get killed, since they all school together. The whales get a big catch of krill because they are in a school. If the krill always stayed away from eachother, then the whales would starve.

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If the newbs actually played and moved around, they wouldn't be target practice for the higher level pilots

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That is kinda the same topic as the school thing. They are all grouped up waiting in line to be killed.

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I know, because in my travels in a Starflier I have yet to encounter one of the "known noob killers".

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I agree. The same with me.

I don't think there is a noob killing problem anywhere. The problem is the complaining about it not being fair. It is fair. The bigger dude worked longer to get his tools and he should be able to benefit from that when attacking another player. That is what upgrading is for. It is also role-playing. Sometimes you have to play the weaker dude.

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The point of trade runs is that you do risk losing your cargo from being killed

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Exactly! Players forget that when they join Multi-Play (Pking On) that they are playing MP for the purpose of the added challenge, conflict, threats, and randomness that humans are able to offer. They forget that when you are in a MP server, that you are not only fighting NPC's but Players too.

Frobozz, The whole Liberty Rule is not needed and like you said gets people banned. And banning someone when they are not causing problems is a waste and does not benefit the community.

Regulator
USB/GOV Website
Keep It Reasonable!!!

Edited by - Regulator on 12-08-2003 19:06:15

BZ;

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Servers need to watch for people who log in and out a lot, and ban such cheaters.

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Careful, sometimes that person is just trying to get the right bribe!

Regulator;

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Frobozz, The whole Liberty Rule is not needed and like you said gets people banned. And banning someone when they are not causing problems is a waste and does not benefit the community.

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You already know I prefer a NY rule over a Liberty rule as being more practical; but it's the Admin's call.
If people break Admin's rules, which is like the constitution for that server, then they are untrustworthy
and not good members of the community. For they may start rationalizing breaking other rules. If they
disagree that much with the Admin's will, they should either petition the Admin to change the rules or find
a server with rules that match their play style. Just like people who HATE PvP should find Non-PvP servers.

I for one prefer a server with dual zones; PvP and non-PvP and I spend much of my time enforcing the Admin's rules.

"Got anything for me?" - Trent, A.K.A. 'Mr. Eloquent'

Edited by - Frobozz on 12-08-2003 19:54:31

The primary reason noobs complain about being PK'd is because a person pre-disposed to whining is more likely to remain a noob, rather than learn to excel in his environment. I'm not kidding either. This is an easy game. You can make it to level 40 in about 3-4 hours without too much difficulty. That time period doesn't leave alot of time for complaints on the board :p

I was a noob once. I've lost a bet-the-farm cargo more than once. I was PK'd a few times, but I wouldn't have had time to write a forum post about it, because I was in an an eagle by the time anyone would have read about it. I adapted and overcame. So did the rest of us. The reason a person remains a target is because they spend more time complaining than they do leveling up. That's their problem.

I'm still trying to envision a Quake match where players might say "Don't kill that guy, he doesn't have his 200 armor, RL, and quad-damage yet". LOL. "Awww come ON, don't kill him, he just got his Rocket launcher, and if he dies he'll never get to the quad". Sound funny? It IS funny! Ladies and gentlemen, it is YOUR reponsibility to outfit yourself with the best gear. Everyone else on the server is potentially hostile. If you don't like that, then make some allies.

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If people break Admin's rules, which is like the constitution for that server, then they are untrustworthy and not good members of the community.

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I don't want to argue too strongly against this, but I don't necessarily agree with it. In my opinion, a rule breaker is at minimum not good for the admin. That does not mean they are bad for the community. Some players may bend/break some rules ex. (doing some consensual PvP out of sight in Liberty), but that doesn't make them bad for the community.

It doesn't make them totally untrustworth either. It just increases doubts in the minds of people that are suspicious.

And the admin's rules are not really like the constitution, since the admin's power is primarily a dictatorship that is usually(but not always) aimed at benefiting the community of players. The admin is not always 100% right about what is best for the community, therefore mildly breaking a rule without causing anyone harm doesn't definately make a player bad for a community. Take the Iraqi citizens when Hussein was in power as an example. If they break a Hussein Regime law, that doesn't 100% make them bad for the community.

Regulator
USB/GOV Website
Keep It Reasonable!!!

Quake comparison is not entirely apples Vs apples.
If FL had only fighters, ya, but a freighter full of cargo has no analogy in Quake.

Iraq also not apples Vs. Apples, you choose to play on a server then you also choose
to abide by the host's rules, cuz you're a guest.

"Got anything for me?" - Trent, A.K.A. 'Mr. Eloquent'

Edited by - Frobozz on 12-08-2003 21:20:15

Hell yeah!!! GO Gung_Ho!!! I couldn't have put that any better! I think things like that will have to be repeated a few times before the message will get through thick skulls.

Regulator
USB/GOV Website
Keep It Reasonable!!!

Edit in: Probably right Frobozz. But other than that, isn't it a valid comparision?

Edited by - Regulator on 12-08-2003 21:15:35

You know, we can ***** and argue about pvp in general and not get anywhere, so all I can contribute is MY rules set on my server:

pvp is allowed everywhere, but within limits.
1) no killing those of vastly different rank. Each system is rated for a certain difficulty. I expect players to follow that. killing a newb on his own turn (new york) is like saying the corsairs have invaded liberty space and decided to cause a game over to everyone. no fun in that.
2) certain areas out and away from the trade lanes I don't monitor. rank 1-10 players venture there at their own risk. after all, those areas are where criminals and pirates live out, so rules really dont' apply there.
3) if you're aligned with the police. act the part. if you're a criminal, then act that out too. I cycle the factions on my server daily, sometimes to a criminal faction. If a player shows up green on your HUD, they're friendly, and should be left alone.
3) there's the usual no dock camping, killing someone everytime they respawn from the same place, and other common courtesy rules I expect everyone to follow.

bottom line, when you host the server, your word is law. if players disregard that rule, you have every right to take action. if someone gets pkilled by someone breaking those rules, they can e-mail to me the problem. Even though my server allows pvp, it still has rules I expect everyone to abide by, even me.

As far as the F1 trick to evade enemies, I tried to track that. but it's only possible if you're actively in the server keeping tabs on who's logged in and who's not. Selecting New Character doesnt' log a player out. your account is still there, even though the character isn't. I frown on exploiting this bug (which also clears up faction's temporary feeling to you) to harrass other players or give themselves an easy way out, and I warn each and everyone I catch doing it, making sure to log down the account ID as well. second time is a boot. 3rd time is a ban. nice and simple, but the host needs to actively keep tabs on this sort of thing if he wants to put a stop to it.

a cowardly tactic to use? perhaps, but so is blatantly killing a rank 1 player out of manhattan for no other reason because you can, and I've banned players for that too. Having fun is more important than playing the game, but when someone is having fun at another's expense, and my e-mail gets flooded with messages complaining about this person or that person, I'm obligated to take steps. What I find most cowardly is players thinking they can continuously get away with this type of behavior on my server, and ruining the fun for players who just got the game for their own ego stroking. sickening I say. Anyway, that's my 2 cents on the matter.

___________________________________
There is no knowledge that is not power.

PK servers are a challenging environment

non-pk servers are not, and hence attract few if any players.

players enjoy playing with other players.

In order to play with other players, a player is often forced to play in a challenging environment, whether they personally enjoy the challenge or not.

I have seen no evidence of the challenge of a PK server being unfairly distributed. All players start on equal ground. From there they obtain funds, better ships, and form alliances as needed. An exception might be those few players who started on the first day and maintained an edge. These players are very few however.

In essence, you can't have your cake and eat it too. When you get killed by a guy in an eagle, just remember that he faced the same threat when he worked towards buying that eagle. If you wish for a server with arbitrary non-pk moralities, then simply find a server that supports them... if you can. If not, then you have nothing to complain about - start your own server and try to get members for it.

In my experience, most of the whiners want the recognition of excelling at the game, without the challenge that makes excelling noteworthy in the first place. So many people seem completely unable to take personal reponsibility for their own excellence. They would like to be spoon-fed excellence. It's laughable.

Now if you are playing by the (admin created) rules of a server, then that is fine. The rules features of that server have attracted players who agree to play by them. However, on Elite for instance, I will feel free to shoot anyone who passes near me in Theta. And I could care less about the hypocritical whinings of those who can't take responsibility for their own safety. That is their problem, not mine. I already took care of myself, and I did it without whining when I died I might add.

And frieghters? C'mon. Why do freighters fly on a pk-server in the first place? For the opportunity to duel? lol. What no one is saying here is that freighter pilots fly on PK servers for one of two reasons:
a) Because they want the community, and the community is only present on a pk server (tough luck - can't have your cake and eat it too).
b) Because the freighter pilot has other characters on the server, and wants a pk environment for his fighters, but a non-pk environment for his freighters. That's plainly silly.

Besides which, I have killed many a dromedary/humpback using a drake. Guess what? They whined. Now why is that, since their freighters are worth so much more than my Drake? Could it be they never wanted any challenge at all, let alone a fair one? On this note, I'm thinking of grabbing a dagger and destroying a few equal leveled rhino's. Would that be wrong? I mean, assuming I catch them in Shikoku or something, and it doesn't violate server rules, would it be wrong? Want to place any bets on whether or not there will be some whining?

Congratulations on spending the time to type all that up.
Death to the F1 cheaters!

The titan doesn't fly like just any cow. It flies like a bloated, legless, old, sick, dying one.

I type fast

You type excellent opinions too.

Regulator
USB/GOV Website
Keep It Reasonable!!!