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Essay on House Threats.

If you are stuck in a mission and do not know how to continue, this is the place to ask for help. Missing that elusive Level 10 Shield? Don''t know where to find the lost Ohtori ship? This is the only place where spoilers are allowed!

Post Sun Apr 13, 2003 9:11 pm

Essay on House Threats.

I've composed an essay that puts into perspective the possible technologiacl gap between the Houses and a possible threat from the Coalition- that is if Digital Anvil wants to use them in an addon/sequel. It's in the form of a "FanFic" article, so the name is fiction, and the reference to a new Kusari torpedo is fictional. Enjoy!

By: Cdr. James Patterson, Liberty Navy to Liberty Naval War College, West Point Station, New York System

In the 800 years since we left the Sol System, we have grown as a people, and have just survived our greatest trial- the Nomad Crisis. As the Crisis fades into memory, we look at possible new threats, including the Houses’ oldest nemesis- the Coalition on Terra. The thought of Coalition ships entering Sirius space either with exploration or military interests shakes all House leaders to the core, for the problem we fled from over 800 years ago may come back to us, whether we like it or not. The purpose of this short essay is to highlight two flaws in House military doctrine and equipment, and how they may be corrected.
POINT 1- Technological (dis)Advantage

In our first sustained combat against a foe since the 80-Year War, House forces overwhelmed the Nomads in the decisive battle at the Nomad Dyson Sphere. However, we mustn’t be overjoyed by our victory, and look at how we may be at a disadvantage facing a Coalition threat. Considering the fact that we are approximately 200 years behind because of our journey to the Sirius Sector, or situation may not be as dire as it may seem for two reasons: First, We now have access to Nomad weapons, which give as much damage as Level 10 Access weapons, yet use virtually no energy. As of now, examples are being studied in Cambridge and here in Liberty at Willard Research in California. If these weapons can be manufactured in large numbers, and even refined, there can be virtually no weapons advancement the Coalition could offer to match this. Unfortunately, Nomad ships carry no shields, so no radical advances are foreseen in shield technology. However, the Nomad Crisis has given the Houses an incredible leap with cloaking technology. Rhineland, when under Nomad influence, had its entire Naval Forces equipped with cloaking technology. Equipment gathered after the Crisis shows that even though the technology is far beyond our knowledge, this technology can be duplicated easily here in Sirius. The possible problem with this is unauthorized naval movement outside of the Boorman Treaty. However, Liberty created a satellite network to detect cloaked movement, and this technology could be spread throughout Sirius space, circumventing this problem. This alone could circumvent Coalition advantage in weapons because of a complete freedom of movement. The other reason for a possible technological gap is the fact that a trip from Sol would have to go through Sleeper ships, like us, negating technology gains through time, because the whole concept of Hyper Gates, which the Houses are preparing to explore, is millennia ahead of our science, and it would be foolhardy to think that Terran scientists could discover them.

POINT 2- Tactical Crisis and Need for Improved Capital Ship Systems

Throughout the entire Crisis, tactics against capital ships, and capital ships themselves, have shown to be terribly flawed. Capital ships have been shown to be useless against small ships, and can be easily destroyed. Immediately, the Houses, especially Liberty and Rhineland, should look into heavier anti-aircraft defences after the debacles at Willard Station, Omega 3 and twice over Manhattan. In the case of Willard Station, Liberty Cruisers, and the battleship LNS Harmony were unable to engage Rhineland gunboats, and had to rely on meager fighter coverage to not only take them out, but the Rhineland fighter cover, and Rhineland Bombers because of a lack of fast-firing guns and a lack of integrated Air Defence systems, relying only on organic air power to protect themselves. This is a flawed tactic which has shown itself since the Second Terran World War. The other is the possibility of capital ships suffering catastrophic losses from minor torpedo attacks from fighters. The RNS Wotan and Donau , and the LNS Unity were lost, or were crippled by torpedoes. The Rhineland ships were lost from minor torpedo hits which fatally damaged vital equipment. As for the Unity, though it was destroyed by Walker’s cruisers, was damaged by torpedo attacks by aircraft. Capital ship design must go back to the drawing board, with an increased emphasis on survivability, and operations in hostile air environments. If we were faced with a Coalition threat with a fleet on equal technological terms, our combined fleet would probably be in shambles within a year. Our goal should be for ship designs to survive and be operational even after a major attack on them by weapons three times its magnitude. Right now, the two most powerful types of torpedoes are the Sunslayer Level 10 Access torpedoes, and the Kusari “Long Lance” enhanced antimatter torpedoes, which have a large Shield disruptor capable of punching a hole in a ship’s shield, and allow the massive blast from the antimatter warhead to focus on the target’s hull. If we can create ships that can survive major attacks from torpedoes and main ship guns, the safety of Sirius would be well on its way to being a total reality, even from our oldest foe- the Coalition.


"If there are other intelligent beings in the Universe, why aren't they here?". - Enrico Fermi

(Also known as the Fermi Paradox ...)

Post Sun Apr 13, 2003 10:33 pm

nice.

Post Sun Apr 13, 2003 10:35 pm

one more thing capital ships should have fatty kickass shields. What the hell is wrong with that? A capital ship without shields. Look at those turrets too they suck. Sure nice range but 80 hull damage and 40 shield damage at a refire rate of 2 freakin sucks. What is wrong with capital ship designers!
I've never seen a long lance torpedo where do you get them?

Post Sun Apr 13, 2003 10:50 pm

As for the Long Lance Torpedoes ...


and the reference to a new Kusari torpedo is fictional


The way I figure, the sunslayers are an advanced conventional torpedo, but if you put an antimatter warhead on a torpedo, the only damage it would do yould be on matter (whether shieldong, or a hull). If you put a shield disruptor on it, which would punch a hole through the shield, the full force of antimatter reaction would be felt on the hull... Sorry about the confusion...

..............................................................................................
"If there are other intelligent beings in the Universe, why aren't they here?". - Enrico Fermi

(Also known as the Fermi Paradox ...)

Edited by - flyingcanopener on 13-04-2003 23:51:07

Post Sun Apr 13, 2003 11:45 pm

Mith - there's a rumor in a bar somewhere about the thing which you spoke of. The guy said something which boils down to "we can't put shields on cap ships" Actually, he said anything bigger than a small, one-man freighter simply cannot support shields. The area enveloped by a shield can only become so big, at which point it simply stops functioning. He said it was something to do with the current knowledge of shield technology.

Who knows, though - perhaps, with the advent of cloaking, shields could be modified? You'll notice, cloak devices seem to have little trouble masking the prescence of the Osiris or Rheinland Battleships. Maybe some of this technology could be combined with shields to produce a battleship shield.



Flying - nice little bit of fic there. My only disagreement with the whole thing is - what makes you think Sol sceince hasn't advanced much in the 800-ish years? There's no reason that Sol weaponry couldn't be thousands of times more powerful than even your vaulted Nomad weapons. As you mentioned, the power of antimatter is undisputed. Perhaps they have a particle-launcher style weapon which would spew forth a small amount of antimatter? The possible reprecussions of this "Antimatter Cannon" are terrible to comtemplate. While antimatter does not seem to react with energy (meaning ship shields would easily repel antimatter attacks), a dropped shield would mean instant death against an antimatter weapon, as you pointed out.

I completely agree, though, that capital ship design needs serious re-working. Going against a capital ship in a fighter should be a suicide attack, not a relatively easy battle. If it weren't for their lack of maneuverability, battleships could be a force to be reckoned with. As it stands, however, immobile targets are simply fodder for torpedos, as you pointed out.

Post Sun Apr 13, 2003 11:54 pm

Capital ships should have cannons capable of destroying fighters if one shot connects. That's just common sense. They should also have smaller, rapid-fire AAA type guns. These would be able to fire on fighters AND torpedoes, which move even slower than fighters.

And if a single shield cannot envelop an entire battleship, what's to stop them from using shields to protect vital systems, or from using several shields to cover the entire ship working together?

Just some thoughts on making them more functional.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm sick of seeing all your signatures and not having one of my own

Post Mon Apr 14, 2003 12:43 am

I'd be happy enough if the capitals actually MOVE. The only capital ships in the game that didn't look like oversized weapons platform were the liberty cruisers, and those looked like oversized freight trains! And where are the anti-fighter beam cannons, flak cannons, or missile turrets? How about fighter bays, sensors, navigation, etc? God, -fighters- have more subsystems than the capital ships. And how can fighter guns as much damage to capitals as torpedoes anyways?

Post Mon Apr 14, 2003 2:16 am


My only disagreement with the whole thing is - what makes you think Sol sceince hasn't advanced much in the 800-ish years? There's no reason that Sol weaponry couldn't be thousands of times more powerful than even your vaulted Nomad weapons.


I don't mean to some across as saying Sol's technology isn't as good as the Colonies, just that they should be at the most 2-400 years ahead. In the 800 years since, the Coalition has to have had some periods without technological progress, or even some regression (a la Battletech) through warfare. Remember, the Coalition isn't the example of democracy and equality, so over the years I can bet that the Solar System (And possible Colonies) have been involved in at least one war, like the 80 Year War between Rhineland and IMG. Also, forst contact (if at all) may come in the form of Sleeper Ship, thus a long journey would negate the technological advantage because time progressed while the technology of the ship remained the same.

"If there are other intelligent beings in the Universe, why aren't they here?". - Enrico Fermi

(Also known as the Fermi Paradox ...)

Post Mon Apr 14, 2003 3:11 am

I think that Sirius tech only caught up with Sol's because of the Nomad encounter...

First off, why would Sol send sleepers out to Sirius anyways? I was under the impression that the sleepers were a last-ditch effort by the Alliance to preserve itself. Even if they did, though, the simple fact of advancing technology would suggest a discrepancy. Assume it took 100 years for the sleepers to get to Sirius from Sol. Due to this, Sol has a 100 year tech advantage. Now, 800 years later (or 900 years after launch), don't you think Sol would have, if nothing else, improved engines? Therefore, say they cut travel time in half. That means Sol is sending +100 tech on a voyage that takes 50 years. That leaves their science 50 years ahead of Sirius'.

Assuming no Coalition sleepers are sent, then Sirius scientists activate the Hypergates. When they do, they get to Sol after a while. Sol tech should still be 100 years ahead, even if it takes us thousands of years to use the Gates to get back to Sol. The only difference is Siurius Nomad Tech (based on how much better it is than Sirius equip, lets call it a 50 year boost). Now, when we figure out how to get to Sol from Sirius using the Hypergates, Sirius is still 50 years behind, and now Sol has a near-instant method of travel to get to Sirius from Sol, meaning that any tech time they would lose in travelling to Sirius in sleepers is negated.


I just don't see how your math can work, unless the sleeper voyage only took like 5 or 10 years.

Post Mon Apr 14, 2003 5:35 am

I think somebody needs to come up with some way to patch a plot hole big enough to drive a (cloaked) truck through...


Those of you who played StarLancer would remember that cloaking devices were available in that game-- On fighters! Then we got the storyline in FreeLancer saying how it's so hard to miniaturize that technology to use on small ships and it was such a shock (gasp!) when it was first seen in FL.

If there is one pet peeve I have, it's when the storyline writers forget to check for continuity...


That little plot hole aside, my take on the various arguments vis a vis capships versus fighters:

Freelancer/Starlancer have never claimed to be realistic space combat sims-- I think it's great for the "playabilty" and fun factors, and would not be the right place to have all the things that would otherwise be included in a "realistic" space combat sim, things like different kinds of capships:

- Aerospacecraft carriers (lightly armed and armored, big fat target, but carries LOTS of fighters or bombers).

- Logistics ships (ammo and fuel)

- Assault ships (Send in the Space Marines!! Why does the image of Lt. Ripley moving crates of ammo with a powered exoskeleton keep coming up in my mind??)

- Escorts (heavily armed and armored, not just with short-range gun weaponry but also long-range missile weaponry, which we NEVER see in SL or FL because they will detract from all the close-in visceral visuals), differently sized for different tasks (small ones for reconnaissance/scouting/outer picket for the fleet, large ones for protecting the carrier close-in).

Then there would be different kinds of aerospacecraft:

- Aerospace Early Warning and Control (AWACS)

- Electronic Warfare

- Support assets (tanker, transport, combat search and rescue)

- Aerospace Superiority/Fleet Defense Fighter (stress on maneuverability, long-range interception, near useless against capships)

- Multirole Fighter/Light Attack (not as long-range capable, but maneuverable. Can threaten smaller capships)

- Dedicated Heavy Attack (long range, not maneuverable, delivers the "sunday punch." )


(A realistic main distinguisher between aerospacecraft and capships would be atmospheric re-entry capabilities and movement restrictions, i.e. speed, maneuverability, hyperspace capabilities, etc.)


All these things will make a space combat sim "realistic" but at the same time will make them tedious to play (long periods of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror). Basically it will be the Falcon 4.0 of Space Sims (which I would love to play but I doubt many others would).

SL and FL are designed to have a high action level and playability... and not having any of those "realism" elements is the price that needs to be paid, unfortunately.




Edited by - Chandrasekhar Limit on 14-04-2003 07:53:00

Post Mon Apr 14, 2003 6:41 am

I think we were bitching more about the balance of realism/playability, saying that we would have preferred a bit more realism, rather than saying we wanted it to be totally realistic. It just seems stupid that a single fighter can thrash an entire fleet, especially when the enemy outnnumbers you by no less than 2 to 1 and has weaponry capable of totally decimating you.

Post Mon Apr 14, 2003 6:45 am

Yeah, that's that high action level part that the developers wanted (killing a capship by your little lonesome while outnumbered 20 to 1 and all you are armed with is a popsicle stick LOL).

Could it have been done differently (better balance) in SL/FL? As is true with everything else, there is always room for improvement, yes. In that respect I agree with ya.

I dream of the day when somebody will come out with a more "realism-oriented" space sim though. Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on who you are), that will most likely NEVER happen.




Edited by - Chandrasekhar Limit on 14-04-2003 08:01:05

Post Mon Apr 14, 2003 10:17 am

am i the only one wich finds it strange that the technology has evolved backwards (dont remember the word ) since Starlancer? I mean, the cap ships had shields, they had jumpgates that could be fitted on fighters, they had cloaking (wich, by the way, looked much better in sl than in fl ). Isnt that a little odd? There is one possibility, that the "upper hand" the coalition gained, is not the same as in starlancer, and the sleeper ships were launched before the coalition invented cloaking in the first place (or ship-sized jumpgates )

"The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wits"

Post Mon Apr 14, 2003 11:55 pm

Well, if I'm not mistaken, the jump gates in SL are more akin to Trade Lanes in FL- go from one part of the system to the other in a jiffy...

As for cloaking, perhaps the cloaking in SL is more "active camoflague", rather than full "cloaking", as seen by Rhineland ships...

I enjoy the "fun factor" of smoking a Rhineland Battleship, 2 Cruisers, and 5 gunboats in Omega 3 as much as anything else, but it does feel rather awkward doing it. I think that the designers should have made the aircraft ike the classifications in the US Navy in WW2:
Corsair Heavy Fighter (Big, Fast, Powerful)
Hellcat Light Fighter (Small, Faster, more nimble)
Helldiver Dive Bomber (Slow, lumbering, but can deliver huge bombloads with precision)
Avenger Torpedo Bomber (Slow, Heavily Armed, with a huge load of torpedoes)

You would have had a large choice of aircraft with a number of plusses, and varying capabilities, and still have plenty of punch.

Nightsilver-

I figure a 200 year journey to the Sirius Sector because of the fact that they used Sleeper Ships. If the journey took 50 years, they could have used young people to pilot the ships, while raising embryos along the way, and have a large population specifically trained for habitation of the new worlds, with out the prejudices of Earth. I wish there was a final word on the topic of the trip time, because it would make this less a crap shoot, and more logical discussion

................................................................................................

"If there are other intelligent beings in the Universe, why aren't they here?". - Enrico Fermi

(Also known as the Fermi Paradox ...)

Post Tue Apr 15, 2003 12:43 am


I think somebody needs to come up with some way to patch a plot hole big enough to drive a (cloaked) truck through...

Those of you who played StarLancer would remember that cloaking devices were available in that game-- On fighters! Then we got the storyline in FreeLancer saying how it's so hard to miniaturize that technology to use on small ships and it was such a shock (gasp!) when it was first seen in FL.

If there is one pet peeve I have, it's when the storyline writers forget to check for continuity...



Actually, wouldn't it be possible that some time after SL, somebody came up with a new sensor technology that could easily detect cloaked ships (and make them visible on the HUD), thus rendering the cloaking devices useless?
This technology detects, let's say, small gravitic forces caused by the ship on surrounding particles , which could only be eliminated by warping space, which would use near immeasurable amounts of energy using current human technology.

As for fighter-portable jump gates, maybe these were considered too energy-consuming, expensive or dangerous, and discarded in favor of trade lanes (remember, they only seem to work within a star system) and faster cruise engines.

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