maybe they were just being super-secret in case you were one of those terrorist chappies They'd have arrested me and sent me off to Gitmo!

afaik F-22s are in squadron service, the formal order for supply was placed last year? (need to check) I think 1st TFW at Langley has them and they've been deployed to Kadena on Okinawa. I know that 53rd at Eglin has them, I dunno about anyone else but they're rolling them out and replacing the F-15s, which I remember going into service in the 70s and replacing the F-4s. Again iirc the F-22s are mostly going to be based in the continental US, Alaska, and the Pacific; but not Europe. Apparently the US Govt is afraid that us untrustworthy Europeans might make off with dat dere stelff technology (that your lot nicked of us and the Germans in the first place!)

horrible looking 'plane, though. no canvas or struts or bracing wires. how does it fly?

Edited by - Tawakalna on 10/21/2007 11:33:22 AM

Just first and coach Pete.

Back then, though, they had more leg room all around because they didn't jam the seats in like they do now. Reclining seat back did not mean being able to count the nose hairs of the guy sitting behind you ... back in the day.

Regarding the Raptors - The USAF has a total requirement of 381 aircraft but funding may not be made available for more than 180. Over 90 aircraft, of the 131 so far on order, have been delivered. The first operational wing of F-22A Raptors is based at Langley AFB in Virginia with a fleet of 40 aircraft.

They're good looking birds, in a new way. They will grow on you.




The Boeing entry in the fly off had that special kind of look that only a mother could love ... but love to bits.




Edited by - Indy11 on 10/21/2007 7:13:15 PM

that's what I'm saying, back in the day, on Viscounts and Vanguards and Comets and VC-10s, there was loads of legroom and you could put your seat back, smoke, get proper drinks, have a decent view out of the window - not any more, these days a sardine is more comfortable and better treated. You're treated like a criminal on the ground and like a processed sausage in the air, and both with contempt. There's no pleasure in commercial flying at all these days, which is why I drive, or catch trains or take boats these days.

Mind you, these days you're treated like a criminal just walking along the street or parking up, since we became a police state. And you can't even go to the observation lounge or terrace at airports anymore - i only wanted to show the boy the planes a bit closer up and take some photos, you'd have thought that I was armed with a rocket launcher and a parcel of anthrax.

Eh- airlines everywhere are just as bad, y'know. I feel somewhat cheated to have been born too late to enjoy air travel back when it was more than just a way to get from one place to another quickly. Matter of fact, last time I was convinced to fly, I was forced to wait through so many delays and suffer so much hassle that by the time it was all over I'd spent ten hours between doors- fully half the time it would have taken me to drive the thousand-plus miles between here and home. Utterly ridiculous, considering that your average commercial airliner routinely does 10x the speed limit on of your average highway. And don't even get me started on airport 'security.' I think that one incident- the one where the Gov't lost a load of explosives they were using to test the bomb-sniffers and later had them wind up in France- says pretty much everything that needs to be said about that.

Couple all that with a genuine fear of being around masses of people I don't know (especially being packed like a sardine with them!) and flying- which, in itself, ought to be an amazing and relaxing experience- turns into a nightmare. The few enjoyable flights I've been on were the same few where I had the privilege of traveling in business class instead of back in the cattle-car.

I love airplanes, but I loathe flying.

BTW, The Raptor may look pretty, but I've yet to be convinced that it's worthy of sitting with the Eagles and Phantoms of the past. The Phantom was good enough that variants are still serving to this day in several air forces (and not second-rate budget ones, either), and the Eagle has yet to be handed a single loss- it may not be the prettiest of planes, but any aircraft which can be flown and landed with one wing missing commands a certain degree of respect. The Raptor has one hell of a legacy to live up to.

'ells bells, it's like reading summat I wrote meself! I think I should award NukeIT the Tawakalna "Whingeing Git of the Week" award, that was a rant about service and modern life worthy of my own whimsical observations I almost feel like printing it off and sending it to the Daily Telegraph.

I agree completely, no more rotten airline flying for me; unless I get work to pay for Club Class, it's trains and cars and boats from now on, and holidays in Devon (or Scotland)

I was a big fan of both the Phantom and the Eagle, when i used to go 'round airshows with me dad when i was a kid, the Phantom was the standard fighter and the Eagle was just coming in to replace it. The Phantom was a big meaty machine that looked like it meant business, although I was always disappointed that the RAF went for those and not TSR2.

Edited by - Tawakalna on 10/22/2007 7:56:15 AM

Okay...
I joined the U.S. Air Force February of 1979.
I went thought the equivalent of three four year universities in three
different technical schools. That, before and since then including other college time added up to over 2000 college credit hours. I learned basic electronics first, then computer programming, and digital/analog systems second, then advanced
warfare systems in the third "semester" .
I was slated to go into the Strategic Air Command (SAC) at Loring AFB, Maine (B52 country) ...but during my studies in the later part of
Electronic Warfare Systems School, somebody in the upper command at TAC
wanted me in the Tactical Air Warfare Center at Eglin AFB, Florida.
There I worked on radar jamming and deception devices (pods) , got to play on
the a few test aircraft. Some of these unique aircraft included,
F-4's, F-15's, FB-111's and A-10's.
I had gone to 2 tech schools in Mississippi and 1 in Texas.
I had been stationed at Vandenburg AFB, CA; Eglin AFB, FL (twice) and
Mangil San Air Station in Korea for a 1 year remote tour there.
I had taken rides in Hueys, Sikorskis, Schinooks, Jolly Greens,
Air Refuelers and "cattle cars" .
I took Aviation Private Pilot Ground School and passed the exam.
I've also flown a few Cessnas in the co-pilot side.
I've gotten to see a wide variety of aircraft, from vintage to modern age.
I've been to more air shows than I can remember.
One of my most memorable experiences was seeing the real
Memphis Bell sitting on the tarmak at Herlong Airfield in Jacksonville, Florida.

In June 1990, I was medically discharged due to Crohns disease.
In total, I had served 11 years in the service.
About three years later in 1993, I landed a job with the
Department of Transportation,Radio Repair and Maintenance Department. There, I worked on digital system two way radios, microwave relay stations and base stations. At least I got to employ my expertise at being a true technician.
I worked with them for 7 years until I became too ill to continue.
Basically, I had to retire.
About four years ago, I finally bought my first PC and learned during the next
two years how NOT to muck about something that isn't broken.
(that was typically me since my childhood...always taking things apart and exploring the inner workings of things)
My first PC is probably 4 years old now...I got it during the time I had been taking care of my parents during their last years and it's running fine since I leaned to fix what I had to fix. I had to take it to a Repair Specialist once
for a bug I could not find.
About three years ago, I began learning how to model things for Freelancer.
I still use the Milkshape 1.7.5 version for all my modeling with all the necessary
addons for Freelancer.
Then, about two years ago...I began learning, working on and developing the
20 Years Later Mod for Freelancer.
23 new systems, 42 new ships, and 10 new factions all created by me.
Now, I would not have gotten this far without the help of Lancers Reactor,
EOA Players Consortium, various inspirations from other mods with their
developers and especially to all the kind folks who have bent their ears
to listen to me. I also give credit to Hewlett Packard, MS, DA, Hubble.org.
Freelancer has given me a new outlet for my creative and artisic abilities.
Now, I'm hopelessly buried in my PC about 12-17 hours a day.
Hell, nobody to worry me, no curfew, no alarm clock...
Just me and my 14 year old, cat Smokey.

That's the beef.

Edited by - Rankor on 10/23/2007 9:26:55 AM

thank you, colleague; that was by far the most interesting and informative post we've had for some time much appreciated that you chose to share those experiences with us. And for me, we have much the same sort of timeframe so the aircraft and places you mention are all stuff I was more or less familiar with back then.

sorry to hear about the Crohn's disease, that's pretty vile; makes my gastric reflux rather petty in comparison, much as I moan about me rotten guts.

Tawakalna,
I'm surprised to learn you don't believe in UFO's.

I've had a few encounters with them since my childhood.
What I have seen with my own eyes, were very much not typical
aircraft and very silent. Especially since I was accustomed to seeing and hearing
the usual air traffic passing overhead from the local Naval bases and Civic
airports. That day, there seemed to be very little of the usual air
traffic.
I was 10 years old during my third year in elementary school season
when I had my first encounter with one. That one by far was the closest
I ever physically got close to one of them.
That one and all of them since then were of course just observations.
It was late in the afternoon, about 4 pm est. So the sun was pretty far off toward
the horizon. I had gone out into the back yard of the house where the family
was living. I can't explain it, but something made me look up. There above me
slightly toward the south was a brightly glowing and quite large object.
From the angle of my observation, it appeared ellipsoid. It also seemed to be not much higher than a few hundred feet off the ground. (In that date & time, it would have been below radar detection since "look down" had not been developed yet) . The closest base to my location at that time was NAS Jacksonville...a P3 Orion base. Other bases nearby were Mayport Naval Station
and Cecil Field Naval Air Station.

Anyway, this object was absolutely quite and motionless in the sky above me.
It didn't act like a balloon since lighter than air balloons will move with air
currets and rise up in the atmosphere.
So I just stood there wondering at it for what must have been about 5 minutes.
It glowed as though it had its own source of light at same color as the noon-day sun, but not nearly as brilliant. I found the afternoon sun where it should be.. off to the west above the horizon. This object was definately not the sun.
Shortly, it began slowly moving off toward the coast to the east.
Liesurely and quietly. I followed it by going around the house to the front yard
and watched as it diminished in size going into the distance at the same level
and apparent speed when I had first seen it begin moving.
I kept watching it until it finally dissapperared as it passed behind the trees in the yard across the street. By that time, the object was nearly a point of light in the late afternoon sky...but still maintained that ellipsoid appearance..as a disk would do. Just as quiet and just as bright.
Oddly, soon afterwards I noticed air traffic crossing the sky again.

Of the other encounters I've had since then, none of them were as close or left
me with such an impression that I'll never forget.
Since that time, I've had at least 4 more observations. 1 during mid day and the others were at night. The last I remember was looking up into the night sky at the stars and noticing one area in particular where three stars formed a triangle.
About a minute later, one of them began moving off in a deliberate
direction until it dissappeard out of sight going deeper into the night sky.

eh...maybe I've been "touched" ...who knows.

ah colleague, you should have been here some years ago when we last discussed this subject. I don't believe in alien UFOs, but I do believe that you lot over the water are up to something sneaky with advanced airframes and propulsion systems. I've seen some very odd things in the air too, but I don't think that they're from alien worlds.

I agree with Taw 100%. The UFO's are just high tech flying objects made by our behind the scenes govt. I have seen work done on what you my call a flying saucer that was an improved version of the one being tested/used in Korean War in the 50's. If you don’t believe that I'm sure you can find it on the net if not go to Ft. Eustis, Virginia for a look at one of the first ever made. You can walk up and touch it if you want to. I think they called it the flying platform then. Moreover, if you don’t think technology has advanced well you have another thing coming. Many UFO's of today I believe are unmanned remote/satellite controlled advanced flying vehicles.

“SISU”
(Pronounced: siss-sue)
(Meaning)
Guts, Tenacity, Steadfastness, Courage, and an Indomitable will to Succeed, and Survive.

if UFOs were alien in origin why would they kidnap and impregnate drunks from trailer-parks?

seriously for a mo, having seen some very strange flying weirdness in me time, including the infamous "black triangles" silently flying overhead and weird glowing lights that didn't behave like planes or choppers, I've seen nothing that makes me think of aliens (except for the first time, but that's cos I didn't know what to think!) but of highly-advanced human kit. This has been going on for years, ever since the War; remember the "Foo-Fighters" not the post-Nirvana band of course, but the strange craft that shadowed and infiltrated Allied bomber formations - and of course the Germans were experimenting with a wide variety of strange and exotic designs to attack enemy bombers with, including saucer-shaped craft, rocket powered catherine wheels, bizarre tube shapes etc. And lo and behold, from the late 40s after these things were taken out to the desert for testing and evaluation, there've been regular reports of weird craft behaving strangely. It's not exactly hard to put together is it? the Germans were at the extreme edge of aeronautical research in the 40s and it's only been recently that the technology has existed to make the more exotic designs possible.

did you know that the Germans invented the Stealth bomber design? look up the Horten "Amerika" bomber on the interweb, or better still, go to the Smithsonian and look at the original, like the guys from DARPA and Northrop did when they were looking for ideas. But it couldn't be properly realised until ultra-strong lightweight composites could be mass-produced. Same for lots of others.

Luft '46 is an excellent site that has many high quality pictures of wartime German experimental designs, actual and proposed. Now imagine some of the more bizarre of these flying around at night, virtually silently and with just the glow of the exhaust(s) or running lights, and tell me that doesn't tally up with the usual descriptions of UFOs.

I've got a couple of theories about "alien" civilizations visiting us.
I also, cannot dispute any of you with what you've witnessed in your days and times.
Oddly, I think we're trying to copy something...and haven't got that
science down yet to really make it work.

We're still an infant civilization trying to grow up. Many times, I think we're
trying to run when we're really just learning to walk.

Salisbury Plain is a pretty useful place to see bizarre stuff. It's dotted with military establishments, most of them classified and secret, the military own vast swathes of it and use it for exercises, which often means a Challenger tearing through the hedgerows and out into the road in front of you, as I found out when we on holiday down there once.

Nightime there can be quite spectacular. Now I know what planes or helicopters look and sound like, even at night - I've seen enough deck landings and low passes on ASW exercises and the like. Some of the things I've seen over Salisbury Plain don't resemble aircraft movements in the slightest, nor do the arrangements of lights - at least no aircraft that I'm aware exist! But so close to classified military bases that the public can't get near, flying in restricted airspace? I don't see that there's any need to postulate an extra-terrestial explanation for that. But who knows? maybe there really are aliens in Area 51 - the lack of responsibility and morality being shown by certain administrations and politicians might indeed be explainable by alien influence!

I'd like to see what my tax money's being splurged on though, when we can't even have our bins collected once a week anymore. Too much secrecy, not enough accountability; I really don't approve of billions being wasted on high-tech toys for the military that do jack for the lives of ordinary folk, and ordinary British soldiers being sent to fight other people's wars haven't got enough body armour to go round or decent armoured vehicles to protect them.

its all in the scifi books and the common underlying themes - our government is building spacecraft in cooperation with aliens to fight a galactic horde. consider that money is all quite phoney now that gold is no longer a standard (in fact... we don't even know where the US's gold is anymore as a total audit of the gold reserves hasn't been done since they were closed... that's not suspicious of course) and that wealth distribution is returning to pre-depression era levels of imbalance.... perhaps what is happening is a funneling off of resources to fund this upcoming spacewar? afaik 300 fighters would not replace all the planes that the multipurpose F22 is supposed to supplant.....

sources? erhm, Eric Flint's Posleen war series