Personally, as a long-time TLR member and FL modder, I think that Openlancer could easily be the breath of life that TLR needs right now. I have been watching this project from the first design doc, but have sadly been unable to contribute as of yet due to a currently very busy RL.

In all honesty, TLR needs OL as much as OL needs TLR. I have faith that the project could be a success if it gets support and coverage, both of which TLR could give. Yes, the project is ambitious, but if it even manages to accomplish one-tenth of its goals, you would have a great game that, best of all, is totally free. The problem, as Megaburn has stated, nobody knows about the project. Well, this could be rectified if it begins to involve the large FL modding community built around TLR. We modders have done some amazing things with Freelancer, and just imagine what we could do with a game that is still being built.

So, I encourage the TLR staff to consider partnering with Openlancer. Frankly, if you don't and no other great space-sim comes out for you to cover, TLR and the FL community will slowly die out.

I can't remember I ever said TLR won't support Openlancer or other open source development projects and I don't know where you ever got that impression. Why wouldn't we want to encourage open source development? The fact is that we do and embrace it fully. However, all I ever said was that you have to be very careful with copyright issues etc. since we do not want to get into a legal battle over copyright infringement. Open source development is a great thing, but you have to be very careful with the materials you use and in the earlier days of Openlancer there were some discussions about the use of certain resources from Freelancer that are protected by copyright. That's all I've ever said to you, not that we don't support open source development. I have even given you a forum of your own (Openlancer forum) to show our support in this. I've always said that we're willing to post news about Openlancer or other projects on the frontpage and to put downloads etc. on Lancers.

So to set the record straight, yes we do encourage and want to support open source development, but we will not host/support it if certain resources are used that are unauthorized and can possibly harm the FL community. Surely everyone can understand that a lawsuit against TLR would be very harmful towards the entire FL community and is something we want to avoid. We're just being cautious, that's all.

If anyone has suggestions or questions, just come to me and we'll talk. As you all know we're still in the process of converting the entire site from ASP to ASP.NET. Once this whole process is done, we're going to start with phase two, which is restructuring and redesigning the site. New forums will be implemented and we'll ready the site for the future, meaning coverage of other possible future sci-fi game projects, including open source projects. Once we start phase two, we're going to ask you, the community, for suggestions in order to eventually have a better, cleaner and more user friendly site.

______________________________
Eraser
Horseman of The Lancers Reactor
E-Mail/MSN: [email protected]
"I'm a firm believer in the philosophy of a ruling class...specially since I rule."


Edited by - Eraser on 9/26/2006 4:29:43 AM

Although it *looks* like people are talking about the same thing, I have a hunch that they aren't.

@megaburn: What do you mean by *support* ? What kind of TLR website resources are you looking for? It would help if you were specific.

<Edit>

Please keep in mind that what may be abundantly obvious to you may be completely obscure to at least some of us.




Edited by - Indy11 on 9/26/2006 6:54:22 PM

Originally we were asking for a forum section with a few forums and a wiki so the bulk of our work could take place on TLR, in the community . Idea being the wiki could be used to foster content creation for all community projects, documenting all games covered by TLR, and anything else the community came up with. OL just needed a single wiki category.

For a while we were looking to create a partnership with TLR to use OL to revitalize TLR and get TLR members involved in the OL project. At this point OL's needs had increased somewhat but a forum section and wiki would still had been sufficient (with Source Forge hosting our source code). I tried to start a dialog on what OL could do to help TLR but it never got anywhere. After a while a few TLR staff members told me TLR was hopeless and OL would need to move on by itself.

Now we want to build a content creation forge to drive the development of OL, its sister projects, and any other game/mod projects looking for a community to call home. The support we're looking for is sheer manpower to finish these projects. I get the sense people are edger to see these projects completed so I'm not sure manpower is really a problem, just a matter of getting the community organized and focused. So the real question here is whether or not TLR wants to be a part in this, and if so how to build the forge site.

I can get into the technical details but its not pretty...

For the hosting, we don't have access to a dedicated server, just a collection of shared LAMP hosting accounts. For primary hosting I have a reseller account (cpanel WHM) with Fuitadnet, that'll cover project hosting with unlimited subdomains, each with its own cpanel account. Chips recommended we use Globat for hosting but we need cpanel, so we're planning to use Globat for bulk file storage, they offer 100GB storage with 1TB/mo bandwidth for $7/mo (or 50% more storage/bandwidth for another $3/mo).

For the main site we want to use Joomla (with various components), Simple Machines Forum, MediaWiki, and Zoom Media Gallery (ZMG). ZMG is for an improvised digital asset management (DAM) system, artists would post model renders in ZMG and zipped model packages on the Globat file site. This improvised DAM can handle images, audio, and limited video but it lacks the revision control found in real DAM server packages. We don't have anything for source code management at this point, only hope there is to find a dedicated server so we can run G Forge (Source Forge type project management package released under GPL).

At best this is a temporary solution until we can get a dedicated Linux server, host a G Forge site, and get a real DAM package. Paying for it is the problem at this point, FNET has VPS accounts starting at $25/mo, Ev1Servers has servers starting at $69/mo and unmetered 10Mbps servers starting at $199/mo. Google ads, donations, selling small hosting accounts, and other sponsorship will cover the cost in time. Its just a matter of slowly building up the community until we can generate big enough revenue stream to upgrade. I'm personally covering the initial hosting costs until ad revenue picks up. Another option is approaching OSTG after the community is established, they might use it to spin a game and content forge off of Source Forge (unlikely).

The licensing isn't pretty either but at least its legally clear now. BP talked to his contacts at MS and said we can do anything we want with FL mods as long as the CD is still required. All new community content needs to be released under a creative commons type license. A license tag schema needs to be defined for the forum (BBcode), wiki (template), and ZMG (meta data). Mods really don't have much to worry about here but the standalone games must maintain extremely clear cut policies for the use of commercial game content. OL is doing two versions, one is standalone, and the second bolts into existing FL installs as an engine replacement mod (with CD check). The other two projects will both be standalone using most of OL's standalone content, licensing should be the same as OL, modified LGPL barring sales and MP subscription services (or otherwise making profit off the games). Adding licensed content for mods of other games would be dependent on getting approval from the publishers. Finally website terms of use/service (“website rules” ) will further enforce adhering to the licensing, moderators will have to keep an eye on content submissions.

Those are our current plans, before starting this thread. I'm not sure what TLR can do to help but if it were up to me, I would offload the entire download section to a service like Globat and put a DAM package up in its place (actually I'd start with installing Linux but thats just me). There are a few Windows based DAM packages available, I can research this if installing a DAM on TLR is an option. If TLR has the web development resources you could build something in ASP.NET. Could use something like COLLADA for digital asset storage in a SQL DB, its an independent standard, most 3D modeling programs and a few games support it.

If setting up a DAM on TLR is too much then at minimum we need some prominent links to point people to the forge site.


Sorry for the long post, if anyone has any questions feel free to ask. Theres a lot of technical detail in there but it could take another few pages to explain it all.


-Burn

Edited by - megaburn on 9/27/2006 5:52:46 AM

So, basically, you want to make changes to the TLR site to make it more compatible with your goals for OL?

Thats about half of it. Something between a few links and a massive site overhaul. A site overhaul is in progress now so this is a good time to discuss any further changes.

The other half is just working with TLR staff to ensure the TLR community is getting the game they want. OL's design is nearly complete. We can post it for public review but its 100's of pages of design material, needs to be a carefully managed review process or else it'll end in a real mess. After the design is finalized we need to focus the community on content creation.

It might seem like I'm asking for a lot but we're talking about a Freelancer sequel here. It might be unofficial and the standalone version does have a new canon, but that FL2 petition has thousands of signatures. Its what everyone seems to want and this seems reasonable to me.


-Burn

Well, I'm not management so I can't speak for them. This is just my take on this so read on keeping that in mind.

I understand that your point is that if the petition for an FL2 is evidence of such a strong desire, OL should get more concerted attention and possibly preferential treatment. You feel that the petition is your mandate. And it is, of sorts. It is a mandate to anyone who has the time, knowhow and inclination to give it a try. I don't think you can say, however, that it is a mandate for everyone who wants an FL2 to step up and be counted ... which I think, you already have become disappointed in discovering.

From a very broad perspective, I get the sense that the OL crew's perception of what the TLR management may be able to accomplish from a practical perspective is a little out of scale with the day-to-day realities that management actually must face.

An Openlancer forum already is up. Which I think is significant in so far as not just "any" mod team (if you will excuse the expression, I understand fully that OL is more than just a "mod" ) can get a forum opened up upon request ... afaik.

Your suggestions on making site os, coding and configuration changes are, ultimately, the decision of the TLR management based upon what makes most practical sense to them. And while they might be able to take your input into consideration, it isn't as if they should or could adopt your ideas in full owing to the fact that they have the site's legacy (both physical and historical) and other members to consider as well as their own limited time and resources (most if not all of the key players in site management actually have full time jobs and many have families to support as well). So in a sense, your pitch to them needs to be framed with these realities taken fully into account. Know your audience.

When people volunteer their own time to do something that requires skill, they usually have a stronger interest in doing it their own way because they know their way best and are, therefore, most confident in their own time efficiency. Were you to be paying them full as timers to do something, the story changes. Generally, they will do what you want within reasonable possibilities so long as you pay for it.

<edit>
removed unwanted smiley.

Edited by - Indy11 on 9/27/2006 9:24:02 AM

Suffice it to say my expectations and my suggestions are two very different things. Remember, we were planning on building this forge site without any connection to TLR. We have a mutual interest here so I'm asking for help. The form and scope of their support is up to the staff.


-Burn

That's good to hear your expectations and suggestions are not the same thing.

I must admit, thought that it was not clear to me from what was posted so far.

Anyway ... without editorializing, then, what are you asking for from the "TLR Community?" which should not be confused with management. From what I have read, you're looking for volunteers ... what am I missing?

Also, let's just assume that management is not able to adopt any of your site change suggestions. How does this affect OL?

It will violate globats policy, terms and conditions to create a site to simply store or act as a downloads repository.

The reason they offer such large amounts of bandwidth is because they know that 9/10ths of their customers will never even come close to reaching those levels.

Not quite sure why cpanel is so necessary for you to be honest but i am positive you can find other hosts that already have CPanel as part of their package and just as much bandwidth/storage. I forget whom i nearly went with last year, but they were just as good as globat on the deals

Globat also offer Mambo (it's what Joomla has branched off from) as a potential installation package as well... so it'd be possible to put up perhaps a downloads and support site or something? I dunno, you'd need to contact them directly with what you are wishing to do/use the site for in order to ensure nothing goes wrong.

Edited by - Chips on 9/28/2006 3:24:36 PM

Indy11,
Good questions. For the TLR community role in the forge site, there are a few dynamics:
-- Game Content Creation: OL needs content so we need new and existing mod projects to contribute their assets on the forge site as general community assets. OL's sister projects will probably use most of these assets too. For OL directly, if 10,000 people want a FL sequel then we want a couple hundred (1-2%) working on OL directly and several hundred more yapping about it (5-10%). The difference between modding games and developing games is about an overall order of magnitude increase in technical knowledge, time commitment, creativity, and headaches. The actual skill required is about the same. The sheer volume of work required is orders of magnitude more but thats why we need to get a larger group of people working on these projects. In many cases the work is actually easier since we have full control over the game data formats and have development tools available (if not easier than at least more productive).

-- Revenue Stream: To fund the forge site we need people to use it, this will generate more ad revenue which in tern allows us to offer more services back to the community. Donations are good too but if the forge is a part of TLR then donations should go to TLR directly. I'm looking into creating affiliate accounts to generate more income, this will fit in nicely with game, book, software, and other reviews.

-- Site Content Creation: The wiki is for both projects and general games. So people can fully documenting games (FL) on the wiki - game play, campaign, canon, modding, troubleshooting, etc... The forums would also drive content creation by moving useful threads over to the wiki for permanent reference. We can compile a reference database of every free open source and free educational resource available on the wiki. OL has become a sort of game design resource for other projects and thats something I would like to continue with the forge site, both on the forums/wiki but also in a newsletter (e.g. a sort of design think tank, more structured than the random chatter on TLR's forums).

-- Community Building: The aim here is two part, get the TLR community involved in these game projects and team up with other open source game projects to share the work load as much as possible. This isn't limited to just sharing source code and models, we can share canon material too. Supporting OL will be the major focus here but I think any project that gets involved will benefit significantly. To bolster this we can hold community events like chats on IRC, content creation/development competitions, seminars, and probably MP rankings. Another option is creating special interest groups, this is something IGDA (International Game Developers Association) started a few years ago and its produced some interesting results within the game industry (e.g. making games more useful via having stuff learned during game play have real world value).

It may sound like I'm expecting community members to make a large time commitment here, I'm not. Site staff and permanent development team members are required to make a commitment. Everyone else can make as much or as little of a contribution as they like, or none at all. Most of this is handled with task management, community members will sign on to complete specific tasks but after the task is completed their commitment to a given project is finished. This can amount to a few hours a month, a week, or a day - or they can work on this stuff full time if they like. Again, the more people we have working on this the faster it will be completed.

If TLR management takes no interest in creating this forge site then we'll continue on as-is before sycho warrior ask me to post this thread. I'll get a demo site setup, work out the bugs, get a domain, and try to launch the forge before the end of the month.


Chips,
Yeah, file hosting will be a problem. I'll look around for other bulk hosting. Another option is using bit torrents or other peer to peer schemes for the larger files. Either way, bulk file hosting will probably wait until the forge site over runs the hosting resources I have available. Hopefully that'll take a few months.

The main issue with cpanel isn't the site control panel itself, its having cpanel's Web Host Manager (WHM). WHM lets me create and manage unlimited cpanel accounts with different hosting packages, feature sets, and balance global hosting resources. Its designed for web hosting resellers and server admins (I'm a reseller).


-Burn