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rewriting history?

This is where you can discuss your homework, family, just about anything, make strange sounds and otherwise discuss things which are really not related to the Lancer-series. Yes that means you can discuss other games.

Post Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:14 pm

rewriting history?

recently the British Govt granted retrospective pardons to soldiers who were executed in the First World War for cowardice in the face of the enemy and desertion from the front line, after decades of campaigning by the families of these men to have this stain on their memories removed.

Many of these men had served loyally and bravely, until driven to refuse orders due to the appalling conditions and almost certain death facing them in the trenches, spending month after month in sodden, rat-infested trenches with miserable food, riddled with disease, waeary, lacking basic sanitation, sleeping amongst rotting corpses, commanded by imbecilic upper-class officers who, with little or no experience of modern warfare, and complete contempt for the "lower orders" would order them "over the top" into massed machine-gun fire, artillery bombardment, and poison gas attacks. The French army, in the same conditions, suffered large scale mutinies, although there is only one recorded instance of British units committing mutiny en masse (at Etaples training camp in 1917) However there were several hundred individual cases, many of which would nowadays be recognised as post-traumatic stress disorder, which would be treated sympathetically. Back then, it was simply known as "shell-shock" and was mostly a result of the incessant artillery barrages to which soldiers at the front were subjected.

Rather like the Vietnam War for Americans, conditions were so bad that the people at home really had no conception whatsoever of what life was like at the front, and soldiers who did go home on leave found that they were disassociated and alienated from "normal" life to the point that they would actually want to go back to the miserable and brutish existence at the front, where at least they could be with comrades who shared and understood their experiences.

Not all the soldiers who were executed were conscripts, either; many were volunteers, some underage, who'd joined thinking the whole business was a patriotic adventure, and this was what they'd been led to believe at home prior to joining up; this was how the authorites of the day presented the war. The reality proved too much for some, and for others, as I've said, they simply refused to carry on being part of the seemingly endless slaughter of bungled mass offensives and viciously cruel attrition warfare.

However, much as this has been a welcome decision for many, both relatives of the executed men, and indeed to most of the public, it does raise issues. I've already said in another thread that it's wrong to rewrite the past to fit in with modern attitudes, no matter how well-meant, and the fact remains that by the standards of the day these men were guilty. All the other soldiers stayed at their posts and fought, despite the stupidity of the carnage; they did their duty and obeyed orders, even if the orders were given by utter donkeys who didn't give a damn about their men. The courts-martial that condemned these men to death were brief and officious, averaging about 20 minutes, but again, given the cirumstances of the time and that the Command offciers were desperately trying to hold together an army that had been badly mauled as the years dragged on, such apparent cruelty was if not justified then understandable. After all, the Romans used to execute one man in every ten if a unit disobeyed orders, even if the individual men had taken no active part in any mutiny. If you were the tenth man on the count, you were done for, end of story. At east in the Great War, the men who were executed had actually done the things they were accused of. And of course, some were genuine deserters, real cowards who were shirking the fight.

nearly a century later of course, it's nigh on impossible to go through the cusrory legal records of the time and decide who was a real coward and who was suffering from trauma, with all the witnesses now being dead, apart from a few survivors of the war in their 90s and 100s. So that's why the Govt caved in and gave a blanket pardon.

My point is this: regardless of the rights and wrongs of this particular issue, and beleive me, having studied the Great War in depth, I can well understand why they refused to fight - I'd probably have done the same eventually, given the same circumstances - but should we sanitise history in this way? if we allow that most of these men were unjustly killed, regardless of the circumstances of the time, then by the same logic we must allow that many other people in history have been unjustly executed by their own Governments, and therefore should, still following the same logic, be posthumously vindicated and pardoned.

for example

Charles Stuart Parnell, who strived in Parliament for Irish Home Rule, and actually took part in plots to undrmine British rule in ireland; although he was executed not for his part in the Irish Republican movemnt, but because the discovery of his private letters revealed him to be a homosexual which filled the British public with utter loathing.

Admiral Byng, who was court-martialled and shot on the deck of his own flagship in 1757 for losing the Batlle of Menorca during the Seven Years War. He was not shot for cowardice or desertion, but was made a scapegoat for his bungling superiors in the Admiralty and the Govt of the day.

Sir Walter Raleigh, famous British sailor, explorer, and adventurer, former favourite of Queen Elizabeth I, executed under KIng James I at the insistence of the Spanish Amabassador for an attack on Spanish territories in S America that Raleigh was undertaking for the British (on the excuse that he had supposedely been involved in a plot against the Queen some years before, but really it was so
James, never the bravest of monarchs, could avoid a war with Spain)

Lady Jane Grey, queen for nine days in 1553, executed again ostensibly for treason but really to make way for Mary Tudor ("Bloody" Mary) Jane Grey was accused of being behind a plot to capture and kill Mary (WYatt's Rebellion) but as was widely known at the time, she had nothing to do with it, nor could have. Jane's claim to the throne, quite apart from her lineage, was partly legitimised by Edward Vi's will naming her as his successor, but she lacked sufficient support in the country amongst men of influence and the public at large, and was nothing more than a pawn who was cast aside while Mary rapidly assembled enough support to ensure her own place on the throne.

And of course, most famously perhaps, King Charles I, the only reigning monarch ever to have been tried, condemned, and executed by his own people in all British history. He may have been a shockingly poor king while he lived, but his comportment to his death was noble and digniied, and truly kingly. Quite how a reigning monarch can be guilty of treason at all has escaped legal experts and historians ever since, for he was of course executed to make way for Parliamentary rule and ultimately Cromwell's republican Commonwealth, and to put an end to the Crown. He did indeed resist, wrongly, Parliament's efforts to limit his power; he did cling to outdated and unworkable ideas of a monarch's divine right to rule; he did invite Irish and French forces, all Catholics, to fight on his side against Parliament, mostly Protestant and increasingly dominated by Puritans; he did have a Catholic French wife, and worshipped in the Catholic

Post Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:16 pm

(con'td) faith, even though Henry VIII, in the previous century, had separated the English church from the Vatican (and apart from Mary Tudor, no monarch since had sought to reverse this schism) and Charles himself was guilty of overseeing the execution of individuals who were clealrly innocent for political purposes. Yet, and here's the rub, since treason in England is and always has been a capital crime against the Crown, how could it ever be argued that a reigning monarch be guilty of treason against his own monarchy? His execution was a political convenience, and one which to a large extent backfired, as it created a sense abhorrence and sympathy amongst the people that later, under the rigid excesses of the Puritans, grew into a nostalgic desire to return to the traditional forms of government, and eventually the return of the monarchy under Charles II after the death of Cromwell.

Ergo, following the logic of this process of reversing historical injustices, if that's what we're into these days, the current Parliament should pardon Charles I; if indeed constitutionally they can pardon him, seeing as under law they (as successors to the Parliament of the time) had no authority to try him anyway.

So you see how messy this business becomes when you seek to redress history by modern lights; as i quoted in a previous post "The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there.." (L P Hartley's the Go-Between, until today I'd have sworn it was A J Cronin)

Does anyone have any comments on this theme? for, against, expanding upon? Perhaps you can think of examples of similar injustices from your own countries' histories? I'd like to see some, it's always interesting and useful to see things from another society's perspective.

Is Benedict Arnold such an example, perhaps? Whilst I'm well aware that to Americans his name is synonymous with the most perfidious treason, he always considered himself an American patriot, so I've read, and was a distinguished and heroic soldier who played a decisive role in the Battles of Saratoga, thus ensuring Britain's eventual defeat, and was driven to his "treason" by exasperation with the politics of the Continental Congress, a belief that the alliance with France was a grave mistake, the pro-British sentiments of his wife, and a sense of injustice and wounded pride at being overlooked and unrewarded for his efforts. Although he died in exile in Britain, (rather than being executed as per my other examples) he was never trusted by the British, despite being given the rank of Brigadier-General, and always longed to return to America. One could of course argue that as the Revolutionary War (War of Independence as the Americans call it) of itself was an act of treason against the Crown, Declaration of Independence notwithstanding, Arnold's "betrayal" was in fact a proper act of loyalty towards his rightful sovereign, King George III. He's the only example I can think of in American history, although I'm sure there's lots more.

(look I had to do 2 posts to get all this on!)

Edited by - Tawakalna Qubt-ut Allah on 8/28/2006 4:16:12 PM

Post Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:59 am

Wow, Taw, that was a really nice essay. I uh... totally agree (partly because I daren't write an even longer essay contradicting you).

However, I feel you give the government too much credit. They aren't granting pardons because someone feels it is the right thing to do. It's just a convenience to get a few dozen more people to stop writing in every week. The blanket pardon makes it obvious. If they really did care they would certainly have gone through the cases and tried to form judgements etc. Instead they granted a full pardon and washed their hands of the affair. Who is going to publicly complain about that? If there were surviving Stuarts (which there aren't, hence accession of Hannover) who were campaigning for a posthumous pardon of Charles I then the government would probably grant that too.

The key to getting a government to do what you want is to demand (or ask for nicely) something that costs them no money, doesn't break any obvious laws and maybe requires 10 minutes of a senior minister's time. (If it requires 5 minutes with some nameless civil servant over the phone it's already done). If it requires a change to the law (i.e. parliamentary debate), forget it. That's why taxi drivers in London are still required to carry a bale of hay in their taxis and celebrating Christmas is illegal.

God, I love cynicism.

Post Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:32 am

I think it's good that the troops have finally been pardoned, there have been people campaigning their whole lives to clear the names of their brother/cousin/father and this shows that continually pissing off the government must have some effect. However, not everyone who was shot for desertion and cowardice was innocent; some troops would often make every attempt to escape, in some cases killing their own men to get away, and they were still shot for desertion. In issuing a blanket pardon the government is pardoning these men as well. They'd have been better off examining each case individually, but as TET says they probably just don't care. This way you keep everyone happy.

I suppose another example could be Russian conscripts under Stalin's rule in the second world war. Advance into the enemy guns and you'd (obviously) be shot, attempt to retreat and you're shot by your own side. In some battles there were special squads of troops who would follow a safe distance behind regiments and shoot anyone who attempted to run away from the fight. Incidentally these squads were often armed with the best automatic weapons the Russians could muster - while many conscripts went into battle unarmed, waiting to collect a rifle from one of their dead comrades - because the high rate of fire meant they could cut down greater numbers of their own troops in case of a full-scale retreat. In the famous Battle of Stalingrad where the Russians made their last defiant stand, it's been reported that soldiers in the thick of the fighting were shot for taking a step backwards, as this was seen as a precursor to desertion. Sadly the sheer scale, lack of records and sensitivity of the subject matter mean this chapter of history is probably consigned to the grave.

Post Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:43 am

Taw - I agree with your points... history should not be re-written on a whim. However, if new evidence has been put forth to the courts and this new evidence has shown the accused to be innocent instead of guilty, then by all means clear his/her name of these charges. But to change policy or a ruling because a few people complain about what their Grandfather was labeled as he ran from the front lines is a load of bull.

Post Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:31 am

History is revised almost everyday. That's the unfortunate thing. And the most common motivation is political be it ideologically based or a matter of expedience. The point would be, in my view, that it isn't just history. Science (at leat as taught in public school) also is revised for the same political reasons.

If history is revised for the sake of expedience, it is the more shameful as it serves no semblance of truth seeking. If history is revised for ideological reasons, there is at least a version of a desired truth being advocated but, still, not the truth.

I question whether the Government pardon is a changing of history. Wouldn't the historical record now show that those men were executed on the grounds of mutiny or treason, etc. and that, almost 100 years later, the current government
issued a blanket pardon for "expediency's sake?"

Isn't that the truth of history now?

Post Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:28 pm

I'm sorry if I made it appear that I was giving the Govt any credit whatsoever; that was certainly not my intention! Of course, they only did this out of expediency and to garner in some public approval. I'm a little concerned that once again the press have largely taken a one-sided view that "it's a good thing and long overdue" without examining the caveats or indeed the implications, as I've tried to (except for the Daily Telegraph, <ahem> which i "occasionally" read myself, just to while away my lunch break, of course...)

if we remain on the theme of the injustices of the Great War, I have since childhood considered it an utter disgrace that our annual November Remembrance poppies retain the name of the Haig Fund (look at the black plastic centre) when it was Haig's stupidity, arrogance, fossilised class attitudes, political maneouvring, and bungling incompetence, that slaughtered so many troops in pointless offensives. I have always been appalled that every year the public donate money that salves the conscience, even posthunously, of this man, who more than any other epiomises the "donkey" of the famous phrase "lions led by donkeys." Hence why I never give money to the poppy appeal - ever. And yes, i get a lot of criticism for it. But if there was any justice, Haig would have been taken out and shot for criminal incompetence and neglect. The Somme, Ypres, Passchandael - all these failed offensives, his "big pushes," achieved nothing, except a shocking waste of life. It's not as if the stalemate was intractable or inevitable - as the Germans proved in 1918 when their durchbruch tactics penetrated the Allied line and restored a war of movement to the Western front.

(To be absolutley fair, Haig did eventually learn his lesson and his September 1918 offensive against the German lines was a spectacular success, a textbook attack that broke the supposedley impregnable Hindenburg line in a matter of days. Although, once again to be completely fair, the German Army had been severely weakened and shorn of its' reserves of men and material in the abortive KaiserSchlact earlier that year that failed to break the Allies, despite coming within reach of Paris.)

I do appreciate of course that history is constantly rewritten, as politics and ideologies change. Of particular note is how perception of the Vietnam War has changed, in America at any rate. Soldiers who came home from S E Asia were shunned, they were percieved by the general public as a source of shame, and in the US in the mid-70s, no-one wanted to speak about Vietnam. in the '80s, this changed, as films and tv started portraying the war in a different light, and now it's a feature of computer games, with "Charlie" being just more "bad guys" that the player, ie the "good guys" can shoot up while listening to some cool Hendrix music. This telescoping has lost sight of a very basic fact that at the time, and for some years afterwards, had entered the public consciousness - that the war in itself was wrong and unjust, and that the Vietnamese had a sovereign right to decide their own affairs. This does not however detract from the troops themselves who were of course largely conscripts and not to be blamed for the decisions of their military and political commanders. I find however this deliberate glossing-over of inconvenient facts deeply disturbing. I recall the final years of the S E Asia conflict very well; the Linebacker raids, the 1972 offensive, the bombing of Cambodia (which ushered in the vile regime of Pol Pot) although I was about 9 or 10, yet I took a great interest in it. However for a first-hand account you'd have to speak to bp, who of course was actually there. I'd be interested to hear his opinion on how perception of the war has changed since then and whether it is, in the final analysis, a change for the better?

I'm amazed that no=one's picked me up on Benedict Arnold yet - c'mon, isn't anyone going to have a go?

edit - just a further point, which came to me whilst having a smoke in the garden, the interior of the Grand Central Mosque of Tawkalnistan being a no-smoking zone by long-standing edict of Mrs Taw Could Parliament legally grant a pardon the Charles I? I suppose that do so, they would have to go back to Magna Carta which put the monarch under the Rule of Law, not above it; although, as I argued above, it's difficult to contend that a reigning monarch could in principle be guilty of treason against the Crown in the first place.

although not in the same category of injustice as my historical examples, the case of Derek Bentley also comes to mind, as there has been a long campaign to have him exonerated too. For those who don't know, Derek Bentley was executed for the murder of a policeman in the 1950s, a murder which even at the time it was acknowledged by the authorities that he didn't commit. The actual murder was his friend, Christopher Craig, who with Bentley was (iirc) robbing a warehouse. Bentley was was educationally subnormal, with the IQ of a child of 10, who had fallen in with Craig who was a proper nasty piece of work and was bullied and dominated and misled by him. When cornered by the police at the scene of the bungled robbery, Craig pulled out a revolver, but Bentley, already under arrest by the Police present (and here's the heart of the whole thing) is supposed to have said to Craig, "let him have it, Chris!" Bentley stated afterwards that what he meant was for Craig to surrender the gun to the approaching policeman and give himself up, and that he didn't actually say those words.

Now, Craig was a juvenile, 16 - in law he couldn't be hung, he was too young. So the Police and prosecution, ina trial that lasted just over an hour, argued that what Bentley had said to Craig was to shoot the policeman, Sidney Miles, and they therefore concentrated on the phrase "let him have it!" to show that Bentley had encouraged Craig to shoot, and as an adult, albeit only 19, was therefore culpable of the murder - they wanted an execution and weren't too concerned about the whole truth, as long as somebody swung. Craig, eager to save his own skin, did next to nothing to contradict this argument, and so Derek Bentley went to the gallows for a crime everyone knew that he didn't commit. Years later, under pressure from Bentley's family and campaigning journalists, Craig confessed that what Bentley had said to him was "let him have it, Chris! let him have the gun!"

Despite years of campaigning, and a successful feature film, Derek Bentley has been repeatedly refused a posthumous pardon by the Home Office, although the efforts to overturn his conviction finally succeeded in 1998. However the case caused such uproar at the time that Bentley was the last man to be hung in Britain, and the death penalty was finally (and rightly) abolished in 1964 largely as a result of the obvious injustice of the Bentley case. That Bentley was hung at all was, to some extent, a result of the then Govt's concerns about growing violence and crime in the post-war years.

If I've made any factual errors int he above, I apologise; I do all this from memory while it's in my head, i don't google the answers.



Edited by - Tawakalna Qubt-ut Allah on 8/29/2006 4:12:54 PM

Post Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:53 am

I don't remember the feature film, Taw, what was it called?

Post Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:22 am


I'm amazed that no=one's picked me up on Benedict Arnold yet - c'mon, isn't anyone going to have a go?


What is there to say about Arnold? Certainly the degree to which he has been reviled over the years in the US is an exagerration of sorts. He was, in fact, a military hero of the War of Independence. He did in fact push the British back at Saratoga and thwarted Burgoyne's piece of the master strategy of separating New England from the rest of the colonies by marching down and up the Hudson River valley from both the North down Lake Champlain and from the south from New York.

But Arnold did, in the end, change sides. His motives to do so may have been valid unto himself but it was not politically astute. His apprehension of or shall we say distaste for the French overrode what he should have realized was a British intention not to permit home rule in the colonies. For all of his intelligence he was politically naive and paid the price.

What is there to pardon? That's the question. His life wasn't taken and he found safe haven amongst those whom he favored in the end. Perhaps historical texts should spend more time on the fact that Arnold was a positive influence upon American military efforts in the early going but what else should be changed? I don't think you are suggesting that Congress issue a posthumous pardon to him at this point, are you? After all, his advice against the French was wrong. Were it not for Rochambeau and the French troops, we wouldn't have been able to defeat Cornwallis at Yorktown.


<Edit>


I suppose that do so, they would have to go back to Magna Carta which put the monarch under the Rule of Law, not above it; although, as I argued above, it's difficult to contend that a reigning monarch could in principle be guilty of treason against the Crown in the first place.


Doesn't that depend upon whether the monarch's malfeasances, if any, happened before or after Magna Carta and in so far as after Magna Carta is concerned, would it not depend upon whether the monarch was acting against a fundamental article of it? Perhaps the term "against the Crown" is too broad but the point should be that after magna carta, the crown was not merely the possession of the king or queen to give and so not something violatable by its wearer. With Magna Carta, Parliament or at least the peers of the realm became enfranchised in the crown as well.


Edited by - Indy11 on 8/30/2006 10:55:49 AM

Post Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:39 am

TET - "Let Him Have It" was, appropriately, the name of the film.

Blood-Sucking Capitalist Vampire - I acknowledge to your superior knowledge of the Revolutionary War, it's not solid ground for me at all. I am not, however, advocating that Arnold should be posthumously pardoned, although one could argue that he deserves some degree of rehabilition in view of his undoubted contribution. I was only suggesting him because he eas the only example i could think of in American history, which I don't know in great detail until the mid-to-late 20th Century.

As for your later point, well that's the nub, innit? it's a point that has never really been seetled definifitevly Britain's Constitution, rather being a matter of accomodation and tradition. Charles I maintained a perverse adherence to a long outmoded principle of the divine right of kings, whilst Charles II was prepared to accept largely unwritten limitations to his powers, and thus was able to maintain his Catholic worship (as well as many other indugences) in private. His brother, James II, on the other hand, was not prepared to accept these accomodations, and thus precipitated the Glorious Revolution of 1688, which brought the House of Orange to the throne. Queen Anne, last of the Stuart line, took the pragmatic approach and was thus able to maintain her reign. The country became Hanoverian at her death because James, the Old Pretender, refused to renounce his public Catholicism even though the Tory establishment was prepared to allow him, like Charles, to maintain it in private; a truculence which cost him the throne for himself and his son, "Bonnie" Prince Charlie, the Young Pretender.

I wonder how the history of the American Colonies would have turned out subsequently if the 18th Century had James chosen differently and become James III and the Stuart line been thus maintained?



Edited by - Tawakalna Qubt-ut Allah on 8/30/2006 2:37:30 PM

Post Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:58 pm

Well lets see, if he were anything like the others, he believed in an autocracy. Which pretty much is what George III seemed to believe in ... outside of the domains the peers in parliament, anyway. Did any Stuart king live long enough to show a medical history against the kind of dementia that Georgie boy was suffering from, btw? Because that would be a factor as well.

My guess is that the colonists' wish for home rule would have been met with equal resistance by a Stuart king.

Post Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:53 pm

that James did in fact refuse to renounce, at least publicy, his Catholicism, is sufficient to indicate his true character, which was more like his father and grandfather. Therefore i would tend to agree with you, in that if even he had made the effort to accomodate the Tory Jacobites in order to regain the crown, eventually he would have reverted to the Stuart "type" of truculence and probably invoked another Glorious Revolution (essentially a coup d'etat)

his son Charles Stuart might well have been a different manner though, a lighter character perhaps more in keeping with his royal namesake and great-uncle. I doubt if he would have been quite so zealous in keeping autocratic control over the American colonies as the Hanoverians, and being French by upbringing and on his mother's side, and having good relations with the French court, might well have largely avoided the dynastic and national rivalry over North America. I think quite possibly there'd have been a more temperate attitude to the wishes of the American colonists and as a result no Revolutionary War, rather a gradual move towards self-government.

You shouldn't be quite so scathing about Farmer George, btw; he wasn't the tyrant American history portrays him to be and was a dutiful king, a good man and a loving father, and he wasn't actually mad but suffered from a form of porphyria, it's now believed, rather like Van Gogh. There is some evidence that the illness may also have been present in the Stuart line (because all the royal houses including that of Prussia were intermarried to some degree) although it's difficult to point to any conclusive indications manifested in the overt behaviour of the Stuarts (Macalpine, Hunger, & Rimington, Porphyria in the Royal Houses of Stuart, Hanover and Prussia: A Follow-up Study of George III's Illness, British Medical Journal, 1968, pp. 7-18.)

And for all Charles II's "merry monarch" pretentions and his skillful handling of Parliament, he too was quite capable of dispensing injustice when necessary, vis the dismissal and eventual charge of high treason against the Earl of Clarendon for the audacious Dutch raid on the Medway that saw the destruction of the English fleet and the capture of the flagship, the Royal Charles, the nameplate of which is still in the RijksMuseum in Amsterdam.

One of the reasons Charles II didn't leave any legitimate heirs is quite possibly the numerous infections including syphilis that he contracted as a result of his many indisgressions and affairs, which he would have transmitted to his wife, Catherine of Braganza.

He also spent the last years of his reign as an absolute monarch after dissolving Parliament.

edit:- going back to my original point, one could argue a case for William Joyce, Lord Haw-Haw (who broadcast Nazi propaganda to England for the Germans during the war) Joyce was tried and hung for treason in 1946, yet he was in actuality an Irish citizen, not British, and therefore in law shouldn't have been tried in a British court, let alone executed (and Ireland was a neutral state for the whole of the war, as it happens) He was of course executed for political reasons, because one can't betray a country one isn't a citizen of. I'm not defending Joyce's actions, he willingly served a loathsome regime and actively worked against the Allies, but his execution by Britain was clearly illegal and quite possibly his conviction was unsound. He should have been tried and then sentenced by the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal.

Edited by - Tawakalna Qubt-ut Allah on 9/1/2006 3:16:07 PM

Post Sat Sep 02, 2006 4:22 pm


Joyce was born at 1877 Herkimer Street in Brooklyn, New York City, to an English mother and Irish father who had taken United States citizenship.


Well, not really just Irish as much as he had claim to citizenship in three countries.

Having been born in the USA, he automatically was a US citizen. Having had an Irish father who had, however, naturalized to become a US citizen, I don't know if he could have retained Irish citizenship from father. Today, I know that the Irish Govt. recognizes citizenship for those who prove that they are a grandchild of an Irish citizen. And his mother was British which, I believe, can establish citizenship in the UK were it to come to that.

So the illegality of it isn't completely black and white. And certainly, the US which could claim to have the strongest legal interest in Joyce, didn't have an interest in having him tried in the US or at Nuremburg for that matter.

Post Sat Sep 02, 2006 5:58 pm

You know, for a moment I that Taw was talking about HIS rewriting of history of the War between him and a certain Rabbit here abouts.

Post Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:31 pm

That's not a war... that's a, er, um..... that's an argument.

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