but sound minorly rappy
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music war-debate
This is where you can discuss your homework, family, just about anything, make strange sounds and otherwise discuss things which are really not related to the Lancer-series. Yes that means you can discuss other games.
Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:07 am
Edit: a sound argument, I should say.
listen little man, you're just the worst arguer ever, you put up GROSS exagerations about rap music, about the music industry in general, throwing out bogus, unsupported statistics then grouping them alltogether under the banner of "rap" as if they were all the same then ask ME to back up. All the while imposing this faux air of authority as though i have no leg to stand on and am totally out of my element. Considering your repeated hypocritical and contradictory posts, you're just looking silly because it seems you dont even know what you're arguing any more.
meh. I haven't seen or heard any proof to convince me otherwise. Please, if you have a valid argument to make why my point is wrong, please present it.
I've yet to see anything from you except the pointing at 50 cent, eminem etc. which is a small portion of rap. Gangster rap. How about hip hop, alternate hip hop? Bands like Jurassic 5, Ugly Duckling, Mark B & Blade. There are LOTS of genres which use rap music as we've already established Beastie Boys for one, and yet BECAUSE of mainstream ganster rap at the moment, its what you only hear and its what you take as being a typical example of rap music. What about funk music, what about break beat? they too use rap for some of their vocals. Are they falling under your whitewashing of genres now?
If what you want to say is that you dont like this "n***er from the street pop a cap in yo biyatch ass" then say that, dont just generalise, or maybe i should say that metal consists of 3 bands and since i dont like any of them, all of metal is a pile of whank. Hey, im starting to sound as unreasonable as you are. If you DONT LIKE something, say that, but that is worlds apart from saying that it is ALL CRAP. your opinion is one thing, stating something as stated fact is totally another.
Edited by - Chips on 3/23/2005 9:10:47 AM
Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:59 am
There we go, an argument. Finally. Thank you, now I have something to respond to. 
(Though, logically speaking, you did make the mistake of commiting a fallacy--you assumed that I thought I had presented a sound argument because I had asked you to present a sound argument.
And yet strangely, if I'm such a bad arguer, how come you have backed up on the eminem point?)
And yes, I have been referring to Gangster Rap and that only. If you want to extend the discussion to include other genres, be my guest, but my opinion is different concerning the other genres you refer to as "rap".
Aesthetically speaking, as I stated, I don't like rap--any of its many subdivisions. But that is irrelevant.
Firstly, one must consider the definition of rap. Is it simply making use of words in music without a specified tune in a song--speaking poetry to music, that is. Or is it rather a style of blaring words thrown together without any grace or style, to a catchy meme-like tune playing in the background that was created out of a computer? The first requires talent and thought. The second doesn't. Unfortunately, most rap has degenerated into that--a beat, soft tune, and series of fairly random words spat out. It requires no use of anything but a technician with a computer to create the simplest of repetitive themes and a fast tongue.
And one comes back to the matter of aesthetics, which one cannot stay away from in music, it being a mainly an aesthetic art. What music exists in that? In the sense that it is a series of sounds which appeals to one's ear, clearly. But when compared to other genres...is it not just noise for the sake of making noise? That is to say, the artists stands up and blares at an audience a series of words put together without any style or grace.
What is impressive about rap artists is their sense of beat, however, and the fact that their tongues can move incredibly fast to express their lyrics. (The latter is not a musical quality, it is a physical one.) The amazing sense of beat they are able to maintain throughout a song is certainly a musical quality going for the genre--but again, not always as commonly found as it should be.
It's interesting--You keep on saying that I have made massive generalizations about rap, but give no evidence as to exactly why the statement I made is a generalization, other than that it is a fact and not an opinion.
Edited by - Wilde on 3/23/2005 11:33:16 AM
(Though, logically speaking, you did make the mistake of commiting a fallacy--you assumed that I thought I had presented a sound argument because I had asked you to present a sound argument.
And yet strangely, if I'm such a bad arguer, how come you have backed up on the eminem point?)
And yes, I have been referring to Gangster Rap and that only. If you want to extend the discussion to include other genres, be my guest, but my opinion is different concerning the other genres you refer to as "rap".
Aesthetically speaking, as I stated, I don't like rap--any of its many subdivisions. But that is irrelevant.
Firstly, one must consider the definition of rap. Is it simply making use of words in music without a specified tune in a song--speaking poetry to music, that is. Or is it rather a style of blaring words thrown together without any grace or style, to a catchy meme-like tune playing in the background that was created out of a computer? The first requires talent and thought. The second doesn't. Unfortunately, most rap has degenerated into that--a beat, soft tune, and series of fairly random words spat out. It requires no use of anything but a technician with a computer to create the simplest of repetitive themes and a fast tongue.
And one comes back to the matter of aesthetics, which one cannot stay away from in music, it being a mainly an aesthetic art. What music exists in that? In the sense that it is a series of sounds which appeals to one's ear, clearly. But when compared to other genres...is it not just noise for the sake of making noise? That is to say, the artists stands up and blares at an audience a series of words put together without any style or grace.
What is impressive about rap artists is their sense of beat, however, and the fact that their tongues can move incredibly fast to express their lyrics. (The latter is not a musical quality, it is a physical one.) The amazing sense of beat they are able to maintain throughout a song is certainly a musical quality going for the genre--but again, not always as commonly found as it should be.
It's interesting--You keep on saying that I have made massive generalizations about rap, but give no evidence as to exactly why the statement I made is a generalization, other than that it is a fact and not an opinion.
Edited by - Wilde on 3/23/2005 11:33:16 AM
Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:58 am
You really ARE terrible at this whole 'debate' thing arent you?
It's interesting--You keep on saying that I have made massive generalizations about rap, but give no evidence as to exactly why the statement I made is a generalization
ring any bells?
I actually said most rap music was sexist--and it is. It doesn't mean that all rap music is sexist, rascist, or homophobic, but the great majority is.
"MOST rap music was SEXIST and IT IS." i know you didnt say that ALL was sexist racist and homophobic, but the GREAT MAJORITY is?
Then why didnt you BLOODY say that then? Why pretend that ganster rap and rap are the same thing you moron? Rap is such an all-encompasing genre that to view them as one and the same is the most ignorant thing i think you've done all thread. Its what im defending for christs sake, im DEFENDING the fact that you're generalising the entire medium of RAP as just GANGSTER rap and trolling along spouting rubbish statistics and one-sided arguments while sullying the name of a legitimate and credible music style. Did you even check out Love Shark's link?
And yes, I have been referring to Gangster Rap and that only.
I havent in the slightest bit "backed up" on the eminem point. i cant even see what your 'point' is at the moment? i can see DSQs point, and i had a reply which was eaten by the internet.
And yet strangely, if I'm such a bad arguer, how come you have backed up on the eminem point?)
The gist of it was:
Eminem was born and raised in the same kind of poverty that many black ganster rappers are from, he was brought up on the same culture, saw the same things, went through the same experiences and ultimately, pursued a career in music like many of his peers. He makes an issue of being white because at the time, the music press made an issue of him being white. Lets not pretend like Eminem is in the same ball park as the beastie boys, just because they rap, doesnt make them equal. As if playing a guitar makes all singers in bands equal either. Gangster Rap is heavily steeped in "bad boy" image, its about boosting your own ego and singing about how you're better than eveyrone else and how you overcame so much adversity and now you're living the dream life but you're still true to your roots". Its a very "paint by numbers" genre and despite the quick-fire skills that many genuine rappers have, this is very generic lyrics.
Saying that, Eminem does something else with his music, after having established himself as a serious rapper, many of his songs have become political and respond to society through his eyes. Sure there's tons of offencive and derogatory content in there, but controversial sells. Not everything is genuine though. There's such thing as showmanship, Marilyn Manson anyone? Ozy Osbourne? I'm not saying Eminem has a heart of gold either, but lets take this bad-boy image with a pinch of salt eigh? He loves his daughter at least.
Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:53 pm
look mr uppitypants, you're driving me insane here. You're putting on this show of being the arguer, yet you cant even remember what you're saying and then expect ME to tell you where you've gone wrong. This debate is over because you've drawn it into an argument and solely because you were too lazy to write "gangster rap" instead plumping for "rap", assuming they were one and the same.
You really lost all respect about half a page up and since then you've just acted like a little boy about everything wanting every single point spelled out for you, while offering no such thing yourself. like i said, other than being grossly ignorant of rap music, i failed to see what your point has become. Long gone is your argument that 90% of the music industry is rubbish and all that is good seems to be metal, which now sound like the ramblings of a teenager who likes his metal and doesnt want to play with any other music, so fair enough. i guess i shouldnt have expected so much from you and will think twice before debating on this level with you in the future.
Seperating opinion from what you pretty much present as "fact" is key for these kind of things and until you do you're still going to sound like a 13 year old shouting "the music i listen to is the only good music out there".
You really lost all respect about half a page up and since then you've just acted like a little boy about everything wanting every single point spelled out for you, while offering no such thing yourself. like i said, other than being grossly ignorant of rap music, i failed to see what your point has become. Long gone is your argument that 90% of the music industry is rubbish and all that is good seems to be metal, which now sound like the ramblings of a teenager who likes his metal and doesnt want to play with any other music, so fair enough. i guess i shouldnt have expected so much from you and will think twice before debating on this level with you in the future.
Seperating opinion from what you pretty much present as "fact" is key for these kind of things and until you do you're still going to sound like a 13 year old shouting "the music i listen to is the only good music out there".
Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:40 pm
... you're still going to sound like a 13 year old shouting "the music i listen to is the only good music out there".
Er, that's precisely what Wilde is. It's not a matter of "sounding like" anything. He *is* 13 and he *is* shouting that his music is the only good music. At the very least he's saying "unless you can prove to me that my music isn't better than your music - and you can't, I'll make sure of that - then I'm right and my music is the best." So you've wasted your time. But it was a good show, thanks.
Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:56 pm
...actually Code, not quite. For example, I absolutely loathe the Clash, the Ramones, Green Day, and Phish. I can't stand them. But they are undoubtably good bands, they just don't appeal to me. Rap, I find, is different--and yes I freaking mean gangster rap!! -- for the reasons stated above, the response to which was a thread of insults, not an argument.