It is a very good counterpoint to histories that are written from a more Western perspective.

Be warned, however, that a majority of the western academic community take issue with much of what Menzies says because of what they believe is an over-emphasis on China's achievements and capabilities of that time.

Doesn't the story go that China used up all it's money and resources on the ships, and so had to end it's imperialism when it ran out of money?


Confusing, but wise, words of the Corsair:
"If you give me £10, then you will have £10 less. Or do you?"

Hmmm. Haven't heard that story.

The story I heard was that the cost of that fleet was not covered by the riches
that were "discovered" and brought back. Since the Chinese dynasties were predisposed to think that anything worth anything only existed inside China, they were biased toward being unimpressed by anything that was reported back to them from abroad (an perhaps rightfully so).

So the explorations were stopped because they weren't worth the cost.

interesting because it ties in nicely with my what if? thread, and I was actually going to discuss this very subject!

Zheng He's voyages were ultimately curtailed because the Ming rulers and their eunuch buraecrats (who were the real power) were essentially introverted; they found nothing in the world outside China that they needed. The impetus for the voyages of discovery in the first place were because Zheng's sponsor, Emperor Zhu Di, needed a spectacular assertion of his power because of the dynastic squabbles that surrounded him. With his death in 1424, his outward policy was reversed by his successors, although an unfortunate omen might have had something to do with it too. His son Zhu Ghaozi (sp?) was a scholar who was appalled at his father's stupendous public projects all of which were paid for by exorbitant taxation, itself causing unrest. The next Emperor ordered the biggest expedition of all, but this was to be the last; pressure from the Mongols, a land crisis, and the growing resentment and jealousy of the court eunuchs towards Zheng He, brought about a cancellation of the project and the disintegration of the fleet; within 50 years China had no ocean going ships to speak of and even the records of the voyages of discovery were destroyed.

The Chinese Empire was always introspective, seeing itslef as the heart and culmination of civilisation. Even in Roman times, when embassies reached China from the West by sea and land, the Chinese were profoundly unimpressed. Being largely self-sufficient in most things, there was never any real impetus to expand, and Chinese ventures into foreign affairs were usually limited to specific military and political objectives, unless Western imperialism which was usually underpinned by trade, ambition, and plunder.

Of course you have to speculate that the Chinese might have reached America. Would they have conquered the Incas and the Aztecs as the Spanish did? or would they have established peaceful relations with them and advanced their societies with Chinese technology and organisation, allowing them to resist the Anglos when they arrived?

..how I dearly wish I was not here..

And that's the irony of it. The Zheng He (Zhang Ho, Chang Ho) exploration was a truly massive armada. It is not as if they didn't have seaworthy craft that could go it alone. The Chinese junk is an excellent ship and can date back in one version or another to well before 1421.

They didn't have to go around imposing awe upon everyone they met but that was the mindset and, hence, the huge costs.

<Edit>

What records do exist mainly indicate exploration was westward from China to Africa. If exploration went east or across the Pacific there seem not to be any chronicles of it that have survived.

Edited by - Indy11 on 5/25/2004 11:54:32 AM

they also had the first manned flight about 1000 or so years before we did

ff, where on earth have you got that from

Ed, prettymuch weswards yeh. As far as Jeddah, Zanzibar on the e coast of Africa and the Straits of Hormuzd. Having said that, if they had continued past the Cape of Good Hope (saying "hello" to sw's future home in the process) the S Atlantic might have baulked them even with their superb ocean going vessels with compasses and staggered rigs, esp with there being no apparent end to the westward journey.

how likely is it then that with the West barred by endless open ocean, they'd have turned eastwards once again and island hopped across the Pacific? Such a process may have already begun as it seems they may have reached the NE coast of Australia.

..how I dearly wish I was not here..

Well, it is easier to get around Cape Horn that it is to get around the Cape of Good Hope. So they might have just followed the coast line northerly and thence to Europe - since we are speculating like crazy anyway.

Island hopping eastward probably is not so likely unless they thought to get some polynesian pilots to go along with them as those little dots in the big blue Pacific would have been impossible to hit otherwise with no charts, etc.

Going south to Australia .... I think from the Ming mind-set, they had gone as far south as needed to go... given indications. Probably felt the same about going east. They already knew of Japan (and weren't all that impressed ) and they knew that beyond Japan was a LOT of water, hence the Chinese characters used in common by China and Japan for Japan's name (source of the sun).

Was it EvD that hatched the theory about Shang Dynasty exiles setting up shop in Central America and giving impetus to the Mayan culture?

Edited by - Indy11 on 5/25/2004 1:18:27 PM

was a program on discovery channel, first chinese fligt was made by a convict, he went for a mile.

dunno about EvD on that one, tbh I avoid all mention of his name. As soon as anything even resembling his nonsense appears on tv or in an article I walk off or switch over. So I can't say, but that sounds like one of his crackpot theories, or one of his followers.

Bloody hell Taw, how do you fit all this crap in your head? It's like your this walking encyclopeadia guy. You should've really been a historian or something instead of pissing around with 'puters.

if it means anything, I p*ss myself and I can't remember my own name sometimes. And I'm always forgetting keys and money and credit cards and stuff like that (but that' due to a conspiracy)

..how I dearly wish I was not here..

Ah, the joys of getting old!

"IT maintenance dept.. taw speaking.."

seriously though, the chinese and korean (written in history books in korea) had some fascinating tech, (japan was like an expansion off china quite a while back i think, a young country relatively speaking)

anyways if one of them emperors of china didn't order all the technology destroyed, china would indeed be a leading power. and it could have taken over or saved the american continent from the anglo invasion.. which would mean no yankee.. what woulda happened during WW1 though? if no yankee to supply yankee tanks.. would they have supplied nukes instead?

Edited by - kimk on 5/26/2004 6:07:46 AM