fascinating stuff thanks for the link taw, I'm gonna have me a read at lunchtime I think...

Go to the Museum.

or Iraq.

yeah cheers guys

I don't really know how those 7 and only those 7 came to be considered Wonders. Notice how none of these Wonders are in the Far East. Also, the grand constructions of the Persians at Persepolis or Susa are not mentioned, nor the many things built in India, much less China (The Wall, for starters), Southeast Asia (Angkor Wat), etc.

That they existed, with the possible exception of the Gardens of Babylon, is not something that has been doubted. Like Taw said, much too much documentation of their existence.

What I've read about the gardens of Babylon is that they might not have "hung" so much as extended outward, like decks, beyond the outer edges of the walls to some extent.

There came a time, though, when the wonders fell to ruin and became forgotten. The forgetting part due to a mixture of ignorance and practicality of the succeeding generations (why preserve a pile of useless rubble?)and wilful omission if not destruction by those in power whose agenda were in contradiction with those wonders. (i.e. - The Taliban and the destruction of the Bamiyan statuary for religious reasons).

OK. I am rambling about. I'll stop now.

Fascinating stuff, as to whether the gardens actually did "hang", the site that taw provided gives us this quote :

---

The Hanging Gardens probably did not really "hang" in the sense of being suspended from cables or ropes. The name comes from an inexact translation of the Greek word kremastos or the Latin word pensilis, which mean not just "hanging", but "overhanging" as in the case of a terrace or balcony.

---

Its a really interesting read, thanks Taw.

In hindsight, I should have started a thread on this rather than hijacking someone else's - sorry

The list of wonders was compiled in Hellenistic times, and as communication with the Far East and India was patchy and intermittent, no clear information came through of comparable structures. Also iirc it was the Han dynasty that built the Great Wall (correct me if I'm wrong) which came later than the Greek "travel guides" that listed the 7w, and not all ancient authors agreed on what constituted the 7.

as far as Persia/Mesoptamia is concerned, that's cultural ethnocentricity I think. Greeks and Romans looked down on Persians/Parthians and wouldn't I think seek to aggrandise the achievements of a culture which was in many ways their greatest enemy.

Our current list is largeley derived from Herodotus, Pausanias and Strabo - and with all classical writers what they get right is q often frustratingly tied in with what they get wrong! Remeber also that classical writers don't write like modern historians, there is no methodology other than what suited them at the time and they often had other motives for writing apart from an historical record (vis Caesar for example)

edit - Ed, "The Taliban and the destruction of the Bamiyan statuary for religious reasons" it wsn't just that. They were trying to destroy the patrimony of the Hazara tribe that had custody of the statues (Shia but tolerant) and also to demonstrate to the UN that they didn't give a tinker's cuss for international opinion.


Edited by - Tawakalna on 5/19/2004 10:01:20 AM

I know. But they kind of drew the mantle of some kind of hyper-orthodox (rabid) sunni muslim religiosity about themselves as their most outward justification.

And was just tugging chains on the other stuff. BTW The Han made the largest parts of the Wall's core barrier length with later Dynasties further extending them but in fact, good ol' Chin Shigh Huang Ti started the Wall (Not a very huge thing in his day but pretty impressive nonetheless).... at least, so it is written.
<Speaking of historiography and the invention of revisionims even before Marxist-Leninist Thinking >

"hyper-orthodox (rabid) sunni muslim religiosity" indeed, insane fundamentalist Wahabbism combined with refugee madrasseh ignorance. lot of it about these days

ok gents, take a deep breath, breeeeaaath in, breeeaaath out, good, now relax and visit this site

That's cr*p.

OK. Fine, I will now re-write my post above to which Taw responded in this so-called understandable at first glance English.:

Original statement: I know. But they kind of drew the mantle of some kind of hyper-orthodox (rabid) sunni muslim religiosity about themselves as their most outward justification.


Plain English: I know. But they used their version of beliefs based upon the religion of most Arabs, the people who live in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iraq and many other countries, which are very old fashioned and bloody because they urge people to be violent and to hate people who do not have the same religion as they do as a holy excuse to the world for what they did.

How is this any better?

Edited by - Indy11 on 5/19/2004 11:50:55 AM

you never mind, Ed, I know what you're on about. Grom doesn't even know where Bamiyan is, he hasn't got Encarta on his Etch-a-Sketch yet funny how all his websites are right-angles... try drawing a circle, brother Gromit!

..you shut your mouth, how can you say, I go about things the wrong way..

lol. cheeky ****!

Ed - I was joking matee, I didn't have a clue what you said so I was just making light of it. I obviously don't express humour in text very well

edit: thanks for the translation though, I now feel vaguely intelligent enough to keep reading this thread

Edited by - gromit on 5/19/2004 12:26:30 PM

"Plainenglish.org"? What bloody rubbish! I will never refrain from usiong words such as "deletirious" "malign", "dogmatic" and "trounce"! If peple can't understand me, then they should read more!

Seriously, I hate "dumbing down" my english for people; it makes me feel as if I am insulting their intelligence.

Sorry to go OT... hang on, this is MY thread!

On-topic (almost): I wonder how the Pyramid could have been used to study the stars? An elevated platform perhaps? Would have been tricky to balance on though .