of course I know who Michael Moore is; I admire his work greatly.

Then we have a similar stance on some things...

I hope you're both aware of how incredibly one sided Michael Moore tends to be. As I read through "Stupid White Men", I found he was misusing statistics to make his points. I agree he has exposed some important issues but he also exxagerates one heck of a lot. In Bowling for Columbine he talked about Lockheed Martin quietly building and transporting "missiles of mass destruction" out of Columbine, when in actual fact they were building rockets for telecommunication and weather satellites. Moore also zooms in on a large sign in the factory that reads "It has to be foreign object free", it's obvious that this refers to unwanted objects that could be detrimental to the operation of the factory and its products; not that Lockheed Martin wants to obliterate foreigners!
I do enjoy Michael Moore's stuff, I just think it would be very dangerous to take his word for everything without further questioning some of what he has said.

I do indeed take issue with some of the things Moore says; as you rightly point out, Rec, his attention to detail is often q poor and he does tend to speak with his heart rather than his head at times. Plus he's anti-smoking (believe me if I get lung-cancer I'm not going to be holding a placard outside British American Tobacco saying "you didn't tell me"

But broadly speaking I know where he's coming from and he is afaik one of the few American film-makers/journalists that rail against the "establishment" who has an international voice and can command media attention.

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$5/hr; and that's a poor price to put on human lives.

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really

working for mcD here will pay a little less than $1/hr. that is, i'm assuming $1 = 1 USD.

and that's the tragedy of the whole economic migrant phenomenon of the last few years. Even in the lowest paid jobs in our countries, a migrant from one of these dross countries like Afghanistan or Albania still earns what to him is a decent wage even though none of us would even consider it capable opf sustaining existence.

years ago, back in the late 80s, the firmi was then working for decided to outsource its tooling requirements for dies and presses to China, even though they had traditionally always used high-quality local toolmakers. One particular project i was involved in required new tooling and the cheapest local UK quote was £36,000-00 - some Chinese setup offered to do it for £7000-00. After going out to China (near Shanghai) our directors went with the Chinese offer, it took longer to get done and the quality was a lot less, but the saving of 30K made it impossible to ignore, esp as rectification work could be done in-house. Now the local tool making industry is dead, cos everyone else did the same.

As some of you know, the major employer where I live has always been the pottery industry, but almost all our major manufacturers have outsourced to the Far East. Not that we ever earnt huge wages round here, most potbanks paid abysmally for even skilled staff, but the wage bills out in the Far east are a fifth of the UKs. Only demonstrators and showrooms are open round here now,mainly, with limited production for high value wares like flambé and paté-sur-paté.

this really winds me up; we're told we're not competitive but we already earn crap wages and dont get pay rises that amount to much, but how can anyone compete with places where the employees work for next to nothing? or bring in foreign workers who again will work for next to nothing, while city fat cats on a 1/4 million a year pontificate about us pricing ourselves out of jobs?



every day is like Sunday, every day is silent and grey..

My complainte wasn't about other workers coming in and takeing jobs. Though that is made an issue in the media. My complaint is taking 200 peoples jobs away and letting 2 stay to repair the machine. A migrant worker, is a very hard worker. He will do jobs that no one else will do. His purpose is his family. I knew a contract painter that kept just enough maoney to keep a roof over his head and food on the table and sent the rest home to his family. That is dedication. No wants the laborer jobs or the vegetable pickers jobs. I understand wanting to keep costs down. Its economics. But sending the jobs off shore hurts more than it helps. Those that you put out of work, can no longer by your product, there for you actually lose money. Keep the jobs home and work on lowering your costs. Economy is a hard thing to balance, no matter where you live.

I know that wasn't what you were posting about, but the conv drifted that way, and it is a closely related subject. You'll notice that I pointed out that automation is often sidestepped by employing migrant workers because of the cost implications of capital equipment investment.

every day is like Sunday, every day is silent and grey..

I don't have a problem with immigrants as long as they're legal. My problem is when they're NOT legal and don't speak a word of English. If you're going to live and work in the United States, LEARN THE F***ING LANGUAGE! As for automation, I agree that machines will ALWAYS need people to maintain them.

"Here I am, enjoying my 2nd Amendment rights, and you people have to freak out on me."

Technology is evil! Just think of all those poor, suffering wagon makers, and canal bargemen, and harness makers who are starving in the streets right now, thanks to the gasoline engine!

By the way, I'm an american (since ff seems to care).

i dont give a monkeys

Here's a no win situation. An answering service, was using people, though incompetent, they were human contact. they switch to a computer directory that is fully interactive and voice req added. You say "Directions" it tell you how to reach us., ect. But I HATE dealing with a machine, push this button to reach a message, enter your password, ect. Now I want the people back!!. Rant over with.

Edited by - Finalday on 5/17/2004 7:11:22 PM

Well, if the economy is going global then our thinking about it needs to go global as well.

The movement of jobs and industry out of the developed nations and over to the underdeveloped or, more often, to developing or emerging economies is difficult to stop if one believes in free trade and "laissez faire" capitalism to any degree.

The ultimate solution to keeping jobs at home is to help raise the general welfare of the underdeveloped and developing nations to levels more approximate to our own. Only when their own economic expectations are the same as ours will they be as "expensive" as we are and keep our employers from seeking "cheap" labor elswhere.

If you consider the recent huge victory that Congress I had in India's general elections, I think that it underscores the Indian reality very starkly even if indirectly.

This so-called cheap Indian outsource labor, in fact, benefits an elite class of privileged young people in Mumbai and elsewhere. Meanwhile, the much larger masses in that country remain without benefit of all that wonderful foreign currency and are feeling left out. If Congress is not careful, they are about to kill the proverbial goose.

Anyway, until India, China, Latin America, Africa, the former Warsaw Pact countries, etc., etc, actually have solid and substantial middle classes who represent the greatest number of workers, they are not going to be where the Developed nations are today. Until that day there will be labor displacements which, if we are not careful, will erode our own middle classes.

never mind Ed there's always good old trade tariff wars and hostile currency speculation!

(and people wonder why I still believe in centralised command economies)

every day is like Sunday, every day is silent and grey..