no, i don't think i would understand. Miracles come from Allah/God and are by definition an overturning of the natural order, whereas what you are describing is not that at all, is it? A true miracle would be, say, the Prophet Mohammed's (pbuh) ascension into heaven from the Temple Mount, Musa dividing the Red Sea, or Yesa turning water into wine or raising the dead. Unless you're prepared to say that all life and everything that happens is a miracle (which is perfectly acceptable as all things are subordinate to the will of Allah/God)

Arcon - don't blaspheme

Edited by - Jalilullah al-Tawakalni on 5/8/2004 8:40:41 AM

@Arcon, this is going to spiral out of control. I want so much to go point by point with your post. But I just want to ask instead, why do you have to impose your view on everybody? Why is your way the only way to be? Some of us enjoyed that story, because we appreciated the kindness of it. And we have not forgotten when we were children and had great hopes and ideals in the things we did.

I don't doubt that something similar has happened quite a few times throughout human history. This is probably a made up story, but it is reflective of goodness that is endearing to some of us.

Sir S

Sir Spectre said,

" And we have not forgotten when we were children and had great hopes and ideals in the things we did."

you're kidding me, right?

I'm not talking "I want to be a football player when I grow up." The little things that seem to have so much more importance when you're young.

Sir S

Edited by - Sir Spectre on 5/8/2004 8:49:51 AM

I knew what you meant. I'm not f***ing illiterate, you know. Just sounds like a naive wistful self-indulgent nostalgia to me. I, for one, would not wish to go back to this exalted "innocence" of childhood. For "innocence" read "stupidity" that appeals to adults because it's "cute" and we indulge it. It would amaze me if that story was actually true (no offence kimk, I'm a terrible cynic)

(fyi i never had those hopes and dreams and ideals, i was a solitary miserable kid who unf was cursed to see the world as it actually was, a sh*theap of lies, and not as some happy safe jolly adventure. I couldn't wait to grow up and f*** off and as soon as I was old enough i did. This innocence of childhood claptrap passed me by)


Edited by - Jalilullah al-Tawakalni on 5/8/2004 9:14:05 AM

@Taw, what's your problem? I'm not trying to offend you, but somehow you taking offense and in some ways offending me. It's not like I'm proclaiming I had a perfect childhood, because I didn't. There are a lot of things I missed out on, but that makes me appreciate them when I see examples of it.

I would hope you treated your children better than you were treated, but was there not enjoyment in that where you could see the wonder of the young in them?

Sir S

Edited by - Sir Spectre on 5/8/2004 9:21:57 AM

i didn't take offence, I'm trying to get to the heart of your argument; it's not like you to wrap stuff up in fwuffy cotton wool. I must just have a darker and more cynical view of the world than you. Sorry if i slammed the door on you a bit strong but I though you appreciated directness.

as to your edit:

yes i brought/am bringing my children up far, far better than i was, but no, i never experienced this semi-mystical catharsis you're going on about, i think it's all in your head. At most i find a mild but epehemeral amusement in children's foolishness, but i don't sanctify it as some sort of overwhelming virtue. That doesn't mean I'm horrible to my kids btw.

Edited by - Jalilullah al-Tawakalni on 5/8/2004 9:31:21 AM

You've got things going on in your head too. And I never said it was virtue, it is merely what I admire as something I didn't have a lot of when I was young. But I appreciated the times I did have good moments I could reflect on.

Sir S

then you were fortunate, because I didn't.