Good enemy vs bad enemy

Mon May 03, 2004 4:56 am by mustang

I was just contemplating what makes a good enemy in a space sim and what makes a bad enemy. Now I'm sure that game companies prior to starting a project do actually sit down and try to nut out what makes a good enemy but time after time we are thrown the "they appeared out of nowhere" line. I mean please, we've seen that dodgey enemy for years and it is getting so very tired. Two recent examples are the Kharrk from X2 and the Nomads (yes, you heard right), they both sucked. While contemplating the suckiness of these two space bound tyrants is that we had little to no back story on them. Sure we got a few dialogues about their origin and why they were fighting but It was so seriously forgettable that I honestly don't even remember why the Nomads were there, nor honestly do I care. All they were to me was something in the way of finishing the game, I didn't really give a toss about them or their plight.

Freelancers saving grace was the rich story of the human race, the development of the seperate houses, conflicts over resources, the fate of the hispania etc. The nomads were really just a side note of minor interest. Now the Kilrathi was an enemy that you'd get a thrill from bringing down, in fact I personally think they have been the only alien race that I've enjoyed going head long into battle with. The reason being is that we could in some way relate to them. We had a reasonably detailed background on them, their customs and history. Hell, we even had a kilrathi friend in Hobbes (until he had to be turned into kitty litter).

Other original enemies of note have been: the black lance and the coalition. I personally think on of the reasons here is that they were human, we knew a few of the enemy by name and knew their customs. So we could relate.

My point being is that if I am able to work out what makes a good nemesis in a couple of minutes, why do game producers continually push crap enemies into production. All they need is a half decent back story. I've said for years that they should hire professional writers to write their game scripts but no-one listens to me. Instead some programmer thinks he's frickin Edgar Allen Poe just cause he can code 5 different light scources into one scene.

I'm just dying to see how incredibly bad the storyline for Doom 3 is. I've been looking for an excuse to rip into Todd Hollensheds enormous ego for years.

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Honk if you demand satisfaction.

Mon May 03, 2004 6:08 am by Sir Spectre

What makes a good enemy. Cheesy enthusiasm with overthetop, all encompassing hatred ala Church of Man Retros in Privateer. Absolutely my favourite people to kill in any game!!

But in a way, it is realistic for them to be liek that. It's a cult.

SIr S

Edited by - Sir Spectre on 5/3/2004 7:09:09 AM

Mon May 03, 2004 7:38 am by Tawakalna

often thort about this one myself..

1. the enemy has to be very powerful

2. good guys have to be struggling or knocked back

3. the enemy has to threaten mankind to such an extent that the good guys have to forget their differences and co-operate

4. even human enemies have to be "inhuman"

5. there should be a border system you can fly to and join with the enemy if you like, pref near M'akh'ran

course if they're a race of vicious aristocratic warrior felines who worship a war god, that's all the better.

i thought the Shivans were pretty dam cool as well.

AND - the dam' military grunts in HL, i hated those guys esp when they were shooting the scientists. Mind you, when you get to be one in OpFor, it's the dam Black Ops you hate more than anything.

but yeh, the Kilrathi were the best enemies ever. I'd have happily left Confed and joined the Kilrathi at any point in any of the episodes

the destruction of Kilrah was shameful. I've always agreed with Admiral Tolwyn over this, humanity won by a trick, an accident; the Kilrathi were superior..

Edited by - Tawakalna on 5/3/2004 3:31:56 PM

Mon May 03, 2004 7:54 am by ~Corsair#01~

It would be a very interesting game, where you play as the legions of a bloodthirsty dictator, against whatever small races he concieves to be a threat, then you could suddenly find out the people you're fighting aren't so weak after all, then you could be drawn into a plot to overthrow the dictator and install a Socialist paradise, working together with your enemies (working side by side with your nemises is always fun, as it forces you to wonder, if this guy is supposed to be the most evil and powerful person in the universe, and this thing was good enough to beat him, this thing must be really deadly), and eventually succeeding.
I think this is why I liked FLs plot so much, as it built up the Order as some kind of evil terrorist group, then suddenly brings a whole new wave of opponents into play, who were once your allies (LSF, Rheinland), and you begin to wonder whose for you or against you, and more importantly, you [care who's your enemy or not.
Switching sides is always a great device to use as it really adds variety.
OK.
That's it.

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Mon May 03, 2004 10:59 am by Megistos

I like games/stories where the line between friend and foe is very thin, and the sides switch simply because the balance is so delicate. I can't remember what the book I read was called with that kind of enemy in, but I loved it

Mon May 03, 2004 12:14 pm by Indy11

Partly, also, the degree of experience of the player may be decisive. While I have MechWarrior experience, I had no space game experience before FL.

The Nomads, to me, were on the whole satisfactory enemies but not as well exploited by the game developer as may be (Not excellent at all). Then again, it is my understanding that FL was rolled out without all of its features having been
developed by its author. So my impression was that those imperfections as I may have found were due to the fact that FL was not a finished product... which is what impressed me so much about the game after I'd played it.

My imagination was intrigued by what may have been the original plan for the game and its open-ness to extended non-campaign play while in the middle of SP was, at the time, amazing to me.

I would have made the Nomads more present in the game (both in host humans and without) and I would have made their ships and weapons more "realistic" in that they did consume energy and that they did possess shielding of some kind. I would have made one of the pirate factions Nomad infested as well, probably the Corsairs. But one can live in hope that there actually will be an FL2 and that it will introduce more sophistication and complexity to the game story as well as to the technologies available to support the fx.

*sigh*

BTW. I am learning to fly in my recently purchased $1.99 Starlancer game.
I've been resisting breaking out my joystick but I must admit that the bleepin' keyboard is woefully inadequate. I see already (for me at least) that once you mouse about in FL, it is very hard to want to go to a joystick.

Mon May 03, 2004 12:56 pm by Nickless V2

I thought ET was pretty scary.

Ok, I agree, an enemy has to have a good background or you wouldn't be able to "hate" it/him/her with complete satisfaction.
Nomads are sissies and I've never met a Kilrathi or a kharrk before so I wouldn't know.

I do know some of you, but I wouldn't concider you real threats

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Mon May 03, 2004 6:45 pm by Esquilax

I think that it the whole "fighting the good fight" situation works well in games. People always like being the underdog against a powerful and implacable foe.

Mon May 03, 2004 8:06 pm by kimk

i loved the SL storyline.. just wished it were any longer. it woulda been awesome to go headlong into the main fleet of the CS.. and that the reliant was still around.. dang.. reliant pwnz. don't like yamato much. too huge. reliant pwnz. i don't care if its a Class 4 smallish cargo carrier in its youth.. its still good.

i really liked going headlong into the black sabres..specially when they cloak.. whoops.. going OT there..

anyways i think the CS make a good enemy. the nomads are bad enemies. like said earlier, good enemies are those that have been developed richly wtih a full background. the thinner the line of balance the better

Mon May 03, 2004 9:23 pm by Neo_Kuja

* SPOILERS FOR FF7 *

Sephiropth (From FF7) was the BEST enemy in a game , ever.
Why ?
Here :

1) He possesed human emotions

You could understand what he was feeling, and you could relate to him. His past was laid out, and his relationship with the main character (Cloud) was a good twist in the plot.

2) The aftermath

Everyone who has played FF7 probably remembers the jail scene, where Cloud + Others are trapped. When Cloud wakes up, he goes to the door, and it opens. Going out, he finds a dead guard slumped dead in the corridor. After searching the corridors, Cloud finds a blood trail with shattered glass everywhere, and when he comes into the Shinra's headquarter's master room he finds the (former) head dead with a sword in his back. Guess who did it ?

3) The Climax

When Sephiropth stabbed Aeris in the back, it was a shocking climax, more so when he flew off, leaving the party to grieve, and a boss monster behind.

He WAS the best enemy.

* END SPOILERS *

Mon May 03, 2004 9:40 pm by Sir Spectre

I had never played a Final Fantasy game before 7. So I didn't know the whole level system they used. I actually beat Sephiroth on Level 1 of everything from abilities to materia without knowing any different. The reason, he uses percentage weapons. They destroy a percentage of your health instead of actual HP/MP. So, while my friend who actually used the level system had a hell of a time maintaining his 9999 HP, I was comfortable fighting the guy at only 1200 HP, I think one of my team was actually at 1500 HP, but that was the highest.

Believe it or not, but it was actually easier to beat him at the lower level. Go figure.

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Edited by - Sir Spectre on 5/3/2004 10:46:37 PM

Mon May 03, 2004 10:19 pm by Neo_Kuja

You have to admit though, finishing him off was/is immensly satisfying .....

Tue May 04, 2004 6:39 am by Trucidation

Sephiroth increases in difficulty according to how buff your party is, and if you get to lvl 99 he'll give you one heck of a beating. His meteor summon was awesome though, I purposely kept him alive to wait for him to cast it.

" In Defeat, Malice; In Victory, Revenge! "

Tue May 04, 2004 7:47 am by Recusant

Occasionally a game has a sidekick you find truly likeable, who holds his own without getting in your way. If or when he gets killed, it makes killing the enemy that much more sweeter. It adds a little revenge to your subsequent kills. Also an enemy that attacks the helpless makes you that little bit more angry, for example in SL when they started to fire on escape pods, it made you want to really blast them to hell.

@Taw, I think what made the marines in HL seem so great was that they appeared to have some incredible AI at the time. In most games pre-HL, you could hide round a corner and wait for the enemy to approach and kill him before he had a chance to fire on you. In HL, you might try and hide in a nook or cranny but they'd just throw a grenade in to flush you out. At the time it seemed scarily human like.

Tue May 04, 2004 7:51 am by freighter fighter

ai in far cry is awesome, even hiding wont work, well you do have a red hawaiian shirt

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