My dislike of Sienfeld generally comes from the creators mindset that just because it taps into my personal opinions of a certain matter (despite being anti the socially accepted opinion), doesnt mean i should instantly like the show. Its like its shouting "c'mon...thats what we all feel inside, you should love this show"
I may disagree with 99.999% of whatever society tells me i should like but that doesnt mean that a show should instantly gain my aproval. Its pretty damn hypocritical.

You ever talked to a goth/rocker and said "yeah, i really love metal music" but your NOT wearing all black. Instead your dressing how YOU want to dress (the very nature of the rock genre: "be yourself...dont conform", you ever get that instant look off them like "who the hell are you and why the hell arent you conforming. Rockers may be all about smashing the state and doing what they want, but Rockers/goths are the most predudiced and (whatever the word is) wanting you to conform to their way of life, more than any other music genre.

The same i feel is with sienfeld. I dont conform to the way alot of people think. I look at something and then like to form my own opinions. Personally i think theres been too much Hoo Har about Princess Dianna. She died, country in mourning.. i got right back to whatever i was doing...i think it was sleeping. So when i see a show where theres some guy trying to get laughs and praise from fans for acting and thinking for himself in a way that he wants as opposed to what society wants. I kinda want to slap the guy. Its a show about people doing/acting the way they want. I'm sorry if i sound a bit mean but i just dont think thats good enough to be 50% of the basis for the show. Its something i hold in high regard. I like someone more if they can do what THEY want, but i dont think its so revolutionary that everything controvertial they say is like gods text from the bible. I just give them a pat on the back and go. Good point. Its like a non-moron (hard to find in the US sitcom scene i can tell you) wants a damn cookie because of it. Well sorry spud. Your acting and humor tallent still sucks ass.


"it has to start somewhere, it has to start sometime, what better place than here, what better time than now"

@Taw

So. Gina Bellman. You're into brunettes? I couldn't find anything other than two rather poorly produced headshots but she seems to have some great cheekbones.
You probably know this already but the airing of the American facsimile of that show failed miserably.

BTW. I am still working up something for that <g> word. Probably will have to link into a post as it is getting very wordy. I feel like I am back in school and writing a term paper.

@Arcon

Thank you. I am beginning to understand your point much better now. I don't want to post any more than that for the moment because I am trying to formulate some thoughts in writing which incorporates more clearly, a respect for your position. Also, when you have a few moments to waste, you may want to track after what I end up posting for Taw on gesamstkunstwerken. You might get a mild giggle.

Red heads for me

gimmee Gina Bellman pics!

@Taw,

Gina Bellman pics hmmmm. *google google google* Oh. Now I see. Hubba hubba. as they say. Thanks!

<grrrrr> she's mine!

@Arcon

---

My dislike of Sienfeld generally comes from the creators mindset that just because it taps into my personal opinions of a certain matter (despite being anti the socially accepted opinion), doesnt mean i should instantly like the show. Its like its shouting "c'mon...thats what we all feel inside, you should love this show"

---

I don't feel this same type of heckling reaching out to me from the screen. I suppose my sensibilities are less attuned to noticing that. I certainly don't sense that they are telling me to like the show. What ploys do you see them using to come off so cravenly to you?

---

You ever talked to a goth/rocker and said "yeah, i really love metal music" but your NOT wearing all black. Instead your dressing how YOU want to dress (the very nature of the rock genre: "be yourself...dont conform" , you ever get that .... "who the hell are you and why the hell arent you conforming. .... .
The same i feel is with sienfeld. I dont conform to the way alot of people think. I look at something and then like to form my own opinions ... when i see a show where theres some guy trying to get laughs and praise from fans for acting and thinking for himself in a way that he wants as opposed to what society wants. I kinda want to slap the guy. Its a show about people doing/acting the way they want .... i just dont think thats good enough to be 50% of the basis for the show. Its something i hold in high regard. I like someone more if they can do what THEY want, but i dont think its so revolutionary that everything controvertial they say is like gods text from the bible. I just give them a pat on the back and go. Good point. Its like a non-moron (hard to find in the US sitcom scene i can tell you) wants a damn cookie because of it. Well sorry spud. Your acting and humor tallent still sucks ass. (some sections have been omitted for the sake of brevity)

---

So, do you mean that Seinfeld trivializes and abuses something that you believe needs to be held in higher esteem? That individuality and freedom of self expression is being made a mockery because the show's ploy is to draw viewers in by pretending to be individualistic and in pursuit of free self expression when the net effect or message to the viewer is the reverse? A kind of smug ha ha ha, look at these fools, don't be like them, be a conformist because it is safer or more cool?



Edited by - INdy11 on 20-11-2003 02:38:01

@Taw cc: to Arcon

Never mind. I could not get what I was writing to gel. I couldn't make it entertaining. So Arcon, especially, no chuckles below. Sorry.

GESAMSTKUNSTWERKEN

The problem in using this concept with Seinfeld, for me, is that I infer that we must talk about Seinfeld as if it were some type of Wagnerian achievement. An "Apocalypse Now" of sitcoms. This doesn't work for me because I do not see Seinfeld as high art.

But, in taking the series as a whole, I can draw out some gesamstkunst-ish elements.


Dance. The condition of social dancing, mainly in caucasian America, in which many heterosexual men are homophobically compelled at the subconscious level to be incapable of doing it well, is turned on its ear when Elaine is the butt of the horribly bad dancer's move joke.

Music. Jerry's inability to appreciate that what he may think is "getting jiggy with it" as a party DJ is vested in his testosterone laced self-image and lacks currency with his friends.

Painting. That like many, George's notion of art is more about the money than about what he may know, much less feel about it or relate to.

Pseudo-intellectualism. That political correctness is all about giving proper lip service rather than recognizing that any principles may be involved. i.e.: "He's gay...... not that there's anything wrong with that."

Hubris. George Costanza.

Passion. Cosmo Kramer

When these elements are examined against a backdrop of the zeitgeist (greed, exploitation, profiteering) of the 90s, in NYC one may suggest that 50 years from now this series may be seen as a gesamstkunstwerken.



How's that?



Edited by - Indy11 on 20-11-2003 03:41:27

wow, i'm really impressed! that's really well done. ur not SirSpectre in disguise, r u?

@Taw

Thanks. . Speaking of SnS..... I haven't seen a post of his in about 4 days now. I wonder if this portends the imminent publication of his ultimate Opus.

@Indy: bravo! I agree on all counts, but you articulate it much better than I could ever do. *FF's faith on English native speakers are restored*

@FF

*Takes bow*

Thank you sir. And, thanks to Taw, I've learned three "flash" words in the process.

@Taw. I came across "weltaunschaung" but was too afraid to use it for fear of unplugging the dike.

@Arcon. The only thing I can do to safely explain the master of his domain thing, going back a few pages is this. Scroll down to the description of The Contest in the favorite episodes section.

Edited by - Indy11 on 20-11-2003 21:52:28

woah! "Weltanschaung" - u been cramming on Hegel?!?

Indy, i still don't get it plz explain it to me (prepares for humiliation offensive !)

btw I loved Archie's aside about master of his domain being me on my office network, it inspired me to further extremes of obstructivity and sarcasm! but then that fits in with my own particular "Weltanschaung"


Edited by - Tawakalna on 20-11-2003 22:48:31

@Taw

LOL. Umm, let's see. The Hegelian Dialectic: Thesis, antithesis, synthesis.
The closest I got to understanding what it means is by taking it to be the clumsier English translation of it: "world view." There is lofty perspective implied in it. There is a sense that it only may be held by one who has done quite a lot of cogitating about it in the first place and came up with many syntheses which in the aggregate resulted in his/her weltanschaung.

Does this sound like anything you got out of it?

---

btw I loved Archie's aside about master of his domain being me on my office network, it inspired me to further extremes of obstructivity and sarcasm! but then that fits in with my own particular "Weltanschaung"

---

Yes but.... have you looked to see what it pertains to (see my note to Arcon before just before your latest to me)? I am sure Arcon plugged you into the thought in all innocence but, before you take on the mantle too readily, you may want to consider the Seinfeldian context into which you have been placed.

Edited by - Indy11 on 21-11-2003 01:34:07