Sun Oct 05, 2003 5:22 pm
If I release a mod for freelancer will M$ have a cow
Why exactly did they close tng so I can avoid that
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If I release a mod for freelancer will M$ have a cow
The general place to discuss MOD''ing Freelancer!
41 posts
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Sun Oct 05, 2003 7:01 pm
Erm - correct me if i am wrong, but also didn't TNG try to 'copyright', or certainly claimed some form of 'copyright' on ideas etc. Plainly put, they overstepped the mark on what is enfingement and copyrights on a product that wasn't theirs to do so. Making the buisness wasn't the problem - it was the fact that they were doing this off of a microsoft product. If they had just started starfyre studios as a buisness without FL as their basis, it would have been fine, but the whole area was about infringement on FL and Microsoft products.
If you really check into the legality of it all, Microsoft have been fairly tolerant of the modding community. Sure, they haven't helped us, but they are under no obligation too either - specially as the source code could be used for other games. TNG just pushed it too far.
This is after all a copyrighted Microsoft product we are fiddling with, and changing/hacking the EXE file especially is illegal from what i understand. Microsoft could have stepped in at any point and done a number of things, including ordering the shutting of all servers which have mods on (or certainly different version numbers), and also make this site a less 'sharing place' to put it mildly! So, don't blame Microsoft. They are protecting their product and consumers from what is effectively 'illegal'.
Chips
p.s - don't start this into a flame war or any crap okay, i am just stating what i understand to be the situation here. TNG did seem to claim copyrights on parts of their mods etc. They overstepped the mark on Microsofts own products, and Microsoft put them in their place by doing the same to them. Its tough luck - especially with the time they have put into all their modifications - but its the risk you take......
"I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!"
Oh - probs didn't help that you had a link to T-Shirts available for sale on another site or something - marketing etc etc.
Edited by - chips on 05-10-2003 20:02:41
If you really check into the legality of it all, Microsoft have been fairly tolerant of the modding community. Sure, they haven't helped us, but they are under no obligation too either - specially as the source code could be used for other games. TNG just pushed it too far.
This is after all a copyrighted Microsoft product we are fiddling with, and changing/hacking the EXE file especially is illegal from what i understand. Microsoft could have stepped in at any point and done a number of things, including ordering the shutting of all servers which have mods on (or certainly different version numbers), and also make this site a less 'sharing place' to put it mildly! So, don't blame Microsoft. They are protecting their product and consumers from what is effectively 'illegal'.
Chips
p.s - don't start this into a flame war or any crap okay, i am just stating what i understand to be the situation here. TNG did seem to claim copyrights on parts of their mods etc. They overstepped the mark on Microsofts own products, and Microsoft put them in their place by doing the same to them. Its tough luck - especially with the time they have put into all their modifications - but its the risk you take......
"I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!"
Oh - probs didn't help that you had a link to T-Shirts available for sale on another site or something - marketing etc etc.
Edited by - chips on 05-10-2003 20:02:41
Sun Oct 05, 2003 7:03 pm
Releasing a mod will not get you in trouble with Microsoft, so long as you maintain the idea your mod is "open source" and can be used by anyone. To attempt to protect what is NOT yours through pursueing any form of copywrite protection on your work it not wise.
A mod is just what it is, a modification of an original idea. To think you have ANY rights or claims that a mod is your original work is not sound thinking. The modding community is strong here, no question. But we also need to maintain some realistic thinking when we modify files of who really "owns" what.
Microsoft and Digital Anvil own the rights to Freelancer folks. Any attempt to use their original game as a baseline to create you own mod is fine, but to think any modifications you make to their game constitutes you OWN anything is simply not true.
Keep up with the mods, but know you have zero right to claim it's your original design. Come on, you had to start from something, and that was the game of Freelancer. If you started from scratch, it would be a whole new ballgame. Not one mod submitted here was started from scratch. Not one.
A mod is just what it is, a modification of an original idea. To think you have ANY rights or claims that a mod is your original work is not sound thinking. The modding community is strong here, no question. But we also need to maintain some realistic thinking when we modify files of who really "owns" what.
Microsoft and Digital Anvil own the rights to Freelancer folks. Any attempt to use their original game as a baseline to create you own mod is fine, but to think any modifications you make to their game constitutes you OWN anything is simply not true.
Keep up with the mods, but know you have zero right to claim it's your original design. Come on, you had to start from something, and that was the game of Freelancer. If you started from scratch, it would be a whole new ballgame. Not one mod submitted here was started from scratch. Not one.
Sun Oct 05, 2003 7:14 pm
Chips is 100% correct. If you people don't quite understand what Chips said, i suggest you read it agian very carefully.
like it or not Microsoft has been -VERY- tolerente to FL being modded, right down to the very EXE/DLLs.
Let's think about it for a few moments.. wouldn't you, as a company watch popular sites such as TLR for modding content? if you didn't want your game modded you'd send an e-mail to bargib telling him to close down the modding forums before anything got really posted. doing that, would remove any post worry about your product being altered in any fassion.
like it or not Microsoft has been -VERY- tolerente to FL being modded, right down to the very EXE/DLLs.
Let's think about it for a few moments.. wouldn't you, as a company watch popular sites such as TLR for modding content? if you didn't want your game modded you'd send an e-mail to bargib telling him to close down the modding forums before anything got really posted. doing that, would remove any post worry about your product being altered in any fassion.
Sun Oct 05, 2003 8:09 pm
Mind you, makes a great story to tell your kids one day..........'And once, a long long time ago in my rebellious youth, Microsoft Corporation threatened to take me to court'.........
Back on topic, I also think it might help if we kept our mods FL orientated and NOT trying to turn it into another game or something - ie using the FL game engine, turn it into a star trek game, or into a starwars game - also, restricting the ability of poeple to play on it, but hacking the EXE files to make your own version has GOT to be a huge factor as well.
Basically Microsoft will tolerate our modding as long as we don't take the piss out of them by
a) Making our own version of the game (v1.6etc - what would happen if they brought out their own dam version here? They have to choose which number they can have......., hell no - we are breaking the law!)
b) Changing their game to another game format by either converting it (using the game engine) into an entirely different game genre (ie - make it a star trek game with all those characters in it instead of FL characters), or by adding various different games that are already in existance into this game until it is no longer recognisable as Freelancer (ie, plonk in about 50 different ships, take out half or all of the FL ships, change faction names etc etc)
By that - think of this. TNG made it so that the ONLY place you could buy the original FL ships was in an entirely different system from the original ones. The weapons of Freelancer were also removed to that system - so you had to buy TNG weapons - which even had new effects - therefore removing the Freelancer game even further.
TNG were slowly trying (intentional or un-intentional - this would be how it appears to anyone who thinks for a minute) to make their own game. The faction names and layout of systems were the originals - but everything else had been changed..........
Where would this have ended?
What are we all actually trying to do? Improve the game as it stands, or change the game to what we would like - because if you wish to change it to something that isn't freelancer - expect trouble
Just what i think......
Chips
Basically - why on earth would you want to make Freelancer into another game you are a fan of? Go play the other game if you like it so much, this is freelancer!
"I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!"
Edited by - chips on 05-10-2003 21:19:51
Back on topic, I also think it might help if we kept our mods FL orientated and NOT trying to turn it into another game or something - ie using the FL game engine, turn it into a star trek game, or into a starwars game - also, restricting the ability of poeple to play on it, but hacking the EXE files to make your own version has GOT to be a huge factor as well.
Basically Microsoft will tolerate our modding as long as we don't take the piss out of them by
a) Making our own version of the game (v1.6etc - what would happen if they brought out their own dam version here? They have to choose which number they can have......., hell no - we are breaking the law!)
b) Changing their game to another game format by either converting it (using the game engine) into an entirely different game genre (ie - make it a star trek game with all those characters in it instead of FL characters), or by adding various different games that are already in existance into this game until it is no longer recognisable as Freelancer (ie, plonk in about 50 different ships, take out half or all of the FL ships, change faction names etc etc)
By that - think of this. TNG made it so that the ONLY place you could buy the original FL ships was in an entirely different system from the original ones. The weapons of Freelancer were also removed to that system - so you had to buy TNG weapons - which even had new effects - therefore removing the Freelancer game even further.
TNG were slowly trying (intentional or un-intentional - this would be how it appears to anyone who thinks for a minute) to make their own game. The faction names and layout of systems were the originals - but everything else had been changed..........
Where would this have ended?
What are we all actually trying to do? Improve the game as it stands, or change the game to what we would like - because if you wish to change it to something that isn't freelancer - expect trouble
Just what i think......
Chips
Basically - why on earth would you want to make Freelancer into another game you are a fan of? Go play the other game if you like it so much, this is freelancer!
"I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!"
Edited by - chips on 05-10-2003 21:19:51
Sun Oct 05, 2003 9:00 pm
I agree on the Version number, that can be misleading to some people.
However TCs (Total Conversions) are normal for games. TCs have been around since games have been around, and it shouldn't be really something to worry about.
I do agree with your statement "Basically - why on earth would you want to make Freelancer into another game you are a fan of? Go play the other game if you like it so much, this is freelancer!" heh =)
Edited by - sputnik66 on 05-10-2003 22:00:52
However TCs (Total Conversions) are normal for games. TCs have been around since games have been around, and it shouldn't be really something to worry about.
I do agree with your statement "Basically - why on earth would you want to make Freelancer into another game you are a fan of? Go play the other game if you like it so much, this is freelancer!" heh =)
Edited by - sputnik66 on 05-10-2003 22:00:52
Sun Oct 05, 2003 9:04 pm
i agree on the grounds that microsoft has been lienent with the modding community, but i think that ms should be looking at what we are doing and getting a feel for what the players want to help their developement. Now i think that we hsould be able to have disclaimers for our work though. ms compyrighted it all, but they havent copyrighted our ideas, you know. i think that since we did put time and effort into to chnaging the game, we should have the right to withhold our mod in a sense. its our idea that we arecopyrihting, but we arent deturing your from playing fl which is by ms. anyone undertsand what im saying. just aslong as in our disclaimer we give support to ms that we modded their game i think we should be good
Mess With the Best Die lIke the Rest
Check out my Freelancer Website FLPoliceclan.tripod.com
Mess With the Best Die lIke the Rest
Check out my Freelancer Website FLPoliceclan.tripod.com
Sun Oct 05, 2003 9:37 pm
I'd just like to say, Microsoft has my outmost 100% support.
I've never really defended Microsoft before due to their operateing systems, and their agressive market stratiges.
What starflyre was trying to do, is make money off their mod that's FOR Freelancer, and ontop of that, get a copyright on their code.
Edited by - sputnik66 on 05-10-2003 22:46:11
I've never really defended Microsoft before due to their operateing systems, and their agressive market stratiges.
What starflyre was trying to do, is make money off their mod that's FOR Freelancer, and ontop of that, get a copyright on their code.
Edited by - sputnik66 on 05-10-2003 22:46:11
Sun Oct 05, 2003 11:45 pm
I got Reynens email today about it.
Starfrye Studios have no rights to work I have contributed to their project. Including any systems or ships of mine they are using. If they had succeeded in copyrighting my work i would have sued them my self.
As far as i am concerned Microsoft are heros tonight. Though I am many others have been put on the spot by it tonight without due cause.
Starfrye Studios needed only have asked me to be told how MS would have reacted to the change of status.
Still this is what happens in a community where the words "Ask first" dont appear to have any meaning.
Such ignorance towards their fellow mod makers sickens me. I thought Reynen had learned that lesson him self but apparently not. Now I have several other mod makers that Reynen borrowed work from have to deal with Microsofts legal department because Starfyre studios decided to try and make some cash out of their mod which contained our work.
Even Lancers reactor is listed in their email.
Here is the part that names those Microsoft want to contact.
*******************
Additionally, we will be contacting several of those listed in your readme file that has helped propagate this unauthorized modification. This is including but not limited to owners of the following other freelancer modifications and programs, Mario "HCl" Brito (Freelancer UTF Editor W/ MFC), Joe Boomz (Ioncross Freelancer Character Editor Mk.V ), DieSeL (Ship Editing Studio), Michael Dan (Rebalance Mod), Giskard (The Hostile Universe Mod), TFKiller Matrix (The Babylon 5 Mod), Grrsk (Grrsk Mod), and Paul (The New Universe Mod) among others. We will also be contacting the owner of the site, Lancer Reactor to have your forum removed from their boards. We have also been informed of your attempt to copyright your unauthorized modification, which we have already disputed and had removed.
*******************************
Most of those named have nothing to do with the TNG mod and have had no say in the planned change to a company or the copyrighting of work.
So if you want a reason to why mod makers should ask before BORROWING work, thats it right there.
Im sick of this crap.
Giskard
Edited by - giskard on 06-10-2003 00:48:08
Starfrye Studios have no rights to work I have contributed to their project. Including any systems or ships of mine they are using. If they had succeeded in copyrighting my work i would have sued them my self.
As far as i am concerned Microsoft are heros tonight. Though I am many others have been put on the spot by it tonight without due cause.
Starfrye Studios needed only have asked me to be told how MS would have reacted to the change of status.
Still this is what happens in a community where the words "Ask first" dont appear to have any meaning.
Such ignorance towards their fellow mod makers sickens me. I thought Reynen had learned that lesson him self but apparently not. Now I have several other mod makers that Reynen borrowed work from have to deal with Microsofts legal department because Starfyre studios decided to try and make some cash out of their mod which contained our work.
Even Lancers reactor is listed in their email.
Here is the part that names those Microsoft want to contact.
*******************
Additionally, we will be contacting several of those listed in your readme file that has helped propagate this unauthorized modification. This is including but not limited to owners of the following other freelancer modifications and programs, Mario "HCl" Brito (Freelancer UTF Editor W/ MFC), Joe Boomz (Ioncross Freelancer Character Editor Mk.V ), DieSeL (Ship Editing Studio), Michael Dan (Rebalance Mod), Giskard (The Hostile Universe Mod), TFKiller Matrix (The Babylon 5 Mod), Grrsk (Grrsk Mod), and Paul (The New Universe Mod) among others. We will also be contacting the owner of the site, Lancer Reactor to have your forum removed from their boards. We have also been informed of your attempt to copyright your unauthorized modification, which we have already disputed and had removed.
*******************************
Most of those named have nothing to do with the TNG mod and have had no say in the planned change to a company or the copyrighting of work.
So if you want a reason to why mod makers should ask before BORROWING work, thats it right there.
Im sick of this crap.
Giskard
Edited by - giskard on 06-10-2003 00:48:08
Sun Oct 05, 2003 11:57 pm
I am with Giskard. TNG got above itself. THey have attempted to copyright their mod to protect it - however, they did not make 90% of the material in the mod first - they copied it from tutorials and others work. Then they zelously attacked anyone who has something even near the mod, accusing others of stealing ideas, and demanding credits due etc - darned cheeky. They never even first made those things at all.........so how they could copyright them?? Beggers belief. Furthermore - they only treated other modders with contempt, and now its all crashing round their ears due to their own actions (which Stinger warned them of the consequences weeks ago) they are attempting to ruin it for the rest of us by fingerpointing to whom they deem should be shut. If Reynen had his way, we would all be contacted by Microsoft and ordered to desist or threatened with court action.
His action/wish in this is take everyone in the fallout which is not very enviable. However, i still feel sorry for them at the loss of work - due to the amount of hours they put into what was a popular mod. It is obviously upsetting to see your work being removed/pulled apart, whilst others who seem to be doing the same appear to be left untouched!
Basically i hope we weather the storm - and offer support to TLR - even though there is nothing we can do!! However, I believe Microsoft has shown us leniancy, but proved that if we push it, they will reply. I hope that this doesn't make them anti modders due to the reactions of some!!!
Chips
Edited by - chips on 06-10-2003 01:00:54
His action/wish in this is take everyone in the fallout which is not very enviable. However, i still feel sorry for them at the loss of work - due to the amount of hours they put into what was a popular mod. It is obviously upsetting to see your work being removed/pulled apart, whilst others who seem to be doing the same appear to be left untouched!
Basically i hope we weather the storm - and offer support to TLR - even though there is nothing we can do!! However, I believe Microsoft has shown us leniancy, but proved that if we push it, they will reply. I hope that this doesn't make them anti modders due to the reactions of some!!!
Chips
Edited by - chips on 06-10-2003 01:00:54
Mon Oct 06, 2003 12:09 am
Well im sure Micosoft see this and are using it to scare Starfrye studios off from their planned course of action.
How ever I strongly resent being put in this position by others.
Im sure TLR and all those named feel as I do on this.
Dam stupid of the TNG team. Dam Stupid!
If mod makers are going to get into trouble because of those they help, where is the community after that ?
Im going to need reference from 4 sources and a 90% pass on an IQ test from any body who wants to use my ships in the future. Before I agree to let them use them. Funny isnt it.
Giskard
How ever I strongly resent being put in this position by others.
Im sure TLR and all those named feel as I do on this.
Dam stupid of the TNG team. Dam Stupid!
If mod makers are going to get into trouble because of those they help, where is the community after that ?
Im going to need reference from 4 sources and a 90% pass on an IQ test from any body who wants to use my ships in the future. Before I agree to let them use them. Funny isnt it.
Giskard
Mon Oct 06, 2003 12:13 am
What I find most incredible is Reynen using a EULA statement :
Link to the messageboard where he uses it is right here unless he have edited it out since then...
Great, so now you can use DMCA to protect something you made by breaking the DMCA in the first place ?
Potatoes for brains.. Or to much cardamine...
Dutch63
Copyright & Disclaimer
***********************
Material within Freelancer: The Next Generation is not to be copied, reproduced, modified, changed, sold, or given away except with express permission from Reynen Starfyre. By downloading and using this you agree to all copyright laws, the NET act, as well other federal laws where they apply. Since security has also been implented within Freelancer: The Next Generation, bypassing / cracking it is in violation of the DMCA and is punishable under that act. BY LAW if you take and use anything within Freelancer: The Next Generation without permission you willing and knowingly break the above mentioned laws and will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. You also agree by downloading and using Freelancer: The Next Generation, you will not hold Starfyre Studios, it's staff, members, partners, nor associates liable for any damage that may occur from use of this software.
_________________
Reynen Starfyre
Starfyre Studios
Project Leader
Link to the messageboard where he uses it is right here unless he have edited it out since then...
Great, so now you can use DMCA to protect something you made by breaking the DMCA in the first place ?
Potatoes for brains.. Or to much cardamine...
Dutch63
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