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Musings of an open mind

This is a free discussion forum on Freelancer. This is the place to discuss Freelancer issues NOT covered by the other boards!

Post Wed Mar 05, 2003 8:53 pm

Musings of an open mind

I'm relatively new to this forum and have only been lurking since I'd heard the game went gold. I've resisted posting anything because I'm usually of the mind to let people state their opinions, regardless if I agreed with them or not. However, I would like to point out a few observations regarding FL.

I had refused to get the demo until last weekend and played several games for about 8 or so hours. I'm really glad I picked up this demo because I find myself enjoying it immensely. While it's not the greatest game since (Enter your favorite game here), it is a very enjoyable game, none the less. No, it's not a full-fledged space combat sim. It's not a accurate future trading market simulation, and it is not much of an RPG. However, it has a dash of everything that my old bones find refreshing.

There are many posts I see people making, detracting the game because of it's apparent brevity, lack of anything to do at the end-game, and because it's not a true "Dynamic Universe." I'd like to point out a few things that I feel will allow me to enjoy the game for what it is; a game.

For those who say the end-game is boring after 15 hours or so: You basically have all the top end equipment, you've made millions doing a lucrative trade run for a few hours, and now it's boring because there's nothing else for you to obtain. Well, all I can say is you get out of a game what you put into it. If you're looking for the fastest possible route to get the best ships and equipment, why would you not expect the game to be over quickly? Why not take your time, resisting the urge to make diamond runs? Try earning money slowly instead of cranking out 10 bounty hunting missions in a row. Every game has an end, or at least a point where it becomes "un-fun" or boring. How quickly you get to that point is up to you.

You also have to set realistic sights for how much enjoyment you get out of a game. I'm expecting roughly 30 hours of unabashed fun in FL. Which means I'll be taking it slow, seeing the sights, doing what I can to make the experience last. Your expectations may vary, but rarely will any game hold my interest for much longer than that. There are a handful that I like to re-install from time to time, just because I get the itch to play again. Typically, I like to milk what I can out of a game, then move on to the next biggest, best game that's due out.

Regarding the non-moving market prices, why is this such an issue? So, everyone knows the best routes and how to make the most money by trading, what's the big deal? Do you honestly think that making prices swing by +/-10% that it would make that much of a difference? Would buying or selling at 10-20% difference make or break this game? Give me a freakin break! The same people would still be making the same runs regardless if they make 10% less or not. "Man, This game rocks because I only made 720k in profit instead of the hard coded 800k!" How ludicrous is that? Even if it was put into the game, how much of an impact do you think it would have on the end-game? Would it make it more fun because it took an extra 15 minutes to make the same money you would have anyway?

The same goes for more varied missions, such as escort, delivery, etc. Can anyone honestly tell me that FL would never get boring or dull if they added 3 or 4 more mission types? Sure, it might extend the game a few more hours for a lot of people, maybe even 10-20 hours for those patient types, but would it magically transform FL into the "Never-ending Fun Game of the Century" some people envision it? I highly doubt it.

Really, what I think I'm trying to get at, and the purpose of all of this drivel, is that FL is not going to be all things to all people. Even if they made certain changes that people seem to whine about, it will eventually become boring, or no longer a challenge, or no longer fun. There never, ever will be a game that lasts for all eternity, doesn't get boring and has every feature we could ever dream of implementing. (If there was, it would be the end of the game industry since nobody would every want to buy anything else.)

Don't fret about what it could have been, or what you envisioned it should have been. Enjoy and savor it for what it is. Because, just like any good game, book, movie, and dare I say, life, it will eventually come to an end.

Yikes, sorry about the length!

Post Wed Mar 05, 2003 9:04 pm

ROTFL......nice!

Welcome "Debris" to TLR

"If this is what you want to do, you'll do it, no matter how long it takes..........and usually the longer it takes the more fun you've had!"

Edited for redundancy

Edited by - Kivuli on 05-03-2003 21:12:23

Post Wed Mar 05, 2003 9:12 pm

I tend to agree with most of what you said. I think that in this day and age, many people are quick to belittle a game because it didn't live up to what they were hoping it would be. Instead of judging the game as it is, they always judge as it could/should have been. This seems a little misguided IMO. Granted, it would be nice if every game produced was the "Best Game in the World", but it just doesn't work that way.

You rarely (or never) saw this back in the 80s and early 90s of computer gaming. I suppose this was because there weren't nearly as many titles, and computer gaming was more of a hobby as opposed to "big business". Who knows.

As for the dynamic economy -- I personally think this would add more flavor to the game. Simply modifying prices by +/- 10% - 20% wouldn't really accomplish much. It would have to be much more expansive than that to make any real impact. Perhaps adding/removing commodities, greatly fluctuating prices, etc, at random during startup. Each game would have a different economic "feel", as it were. So, instead of people milking the same routes over and over and over, they'd actually have to scout out some systems and find a good run -- and they might have to scout many systems to find a _great_ run.

Out,
Volstag

Post Wed Mar 05, 2003 9:16 pm

Good post Debris, and welcome to the community.

This game is highly addictive. I've been playing the demo since last week and can easily average 2-4 hours of non-stop play a night. I just tried multi-play lastnight and enjoyed even more.

As for the prices, Volstag's got a point. Jack up the prices of the higher end stuff and those "millions" of credits won't last long.

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance..."

Post Wed Mar 05, 2003 9:21 pm

Nice post
If I wasn't so tired I would enjoy reading it


Fear me, for I am your father luke (right... )!

Post Wed Mar 05, 2003 9:23 pm

Welcome newbie ^_^ I like you already!

Post Wed Mar 05, 2003 9:34 pm

>>
You rarely (or never) saw this back in the 80s and early 90s of computer gaming. I suppose this was because there weren't nearly as many titles, and computer gaming was more of a hobby as opposed to "big business". Who knows.
<<

Indeed.. Everything was fresh and new!

To add to this, the internet, as it is known today, wasnt as big.. sure you had your Dial-up BBS's and prodigy, but there is such a free flow of information now.

Back in the "old Days" people actually had to comb through a universe by themselves or via word of mouth to discover the "best" trade routes.

-X

Post Wed Mar 05, 2003 9:59 pm

Hey Debris

Nice post, well put. I do have one objection though.

I'm basically buying the game because I once owned Privateer 2. The trading was one of the better-implemented features of the game. Sure there was only a 10-20% flux in prices, but the small changes made the game world feel more realistic. That's what I appreciated about it at least.

Actually the feature I think I'll miss the most from Privateer 2 is the News Network. Again, the feature was really only included for the feel of the game, but I thought it really added to the immersion in the game. Reading random stories from other parts of the universe was just too cool. It was the rumour mill of FL without having to listen to repetetive dialogue! Plus it was how you learned of external factors affecting market prices somewhere. The best part of that was that there was a reason for everything. Poor harvests meant that grain was in high demand, a really good malt harvest meant that beer was cheap, a revolt increased demand for medical supplies, etc...

Still, I'm buying the game because of what I like. The bits and pieces that might have been aren't going to keep me up nights.

Crowley

Post Wed Mar 05, 2003 10:05 pm

Welcome to you too, Crowley well I personally think people should stop this kind of comparison with older games. Granted, FL can be improved in many ways! but during its development, never once did it claim to be a successor of Privateer or Elite or X. Just because it happened to have the Roberts in it, does not mean it will be a sequel of anything. In fact, they have to stated very clearly that FL is a stand-alone game, with perhaps a story connection with Starlancer. That's it.



Aku. Soku. Zan. (Kill. Evil. Instantly.)

Post Thu Mar 06, 2003 9:10 am

Well put, but... hmmm.

Okay. Market prices.

First, it is mentioned in the news bulletins that the commodities market has taken a hit due to the assassination and that prices will fluctuate madly, but will hopefully settle down in a short time.

Player actions should affect the market. Kill all the junkers you can find in the debris field and the price of scrap metal should go up due to shortage. Blowing up/incapacitating a trade lane (I wish) would mean longer routes, more danger for the transports and thus higher prices.

Loot all shipments of niobium/scrap/etc to a shipyard and flows of superconductors/alloys will slow down.

Most of the above is a case of :

if base.item = major_source {
for bases.commodity.source = base do {
bases.commodity.price = bases.commodity.price * 0.75
}
}

Or something. It certainly shouldn't take years to implement.


Missions.

Bob the Rogue Chief kidnaps Kate the Bounty Hunter's cute daughter. Trent rescues daughter, earning a useful friend in Kate and a powerful enemy in Bob. Several real-life hours later you get a mission from Juni involving a sneak raid on an Outcast lair. Bob recognizes you and warns the crew. Later on still you are running away from the cops and Kate steps in, points in the opposite direction and shouts "He went that way!"

Again it should be a case of :

; npc is an array of NPCs that Trent has ever dealt with/met.
npc.create("Bob","LR_Ace.package"
npc.create("Kate","bhunter.package"
set npc.bob.attitude -1
set npc.kate.attitude 1
set npc.bob.debt 1
set npc.kate.debt 1

if mission = lr_base_attack_02 {
random_npc_presence(1, LR_subset, attitude<0 && debt > 0)
if random_npc_presence != Null {
set mission.betrayal 1
set random_npc_presence.debt 0
}
else { set mission.surprise_bonus = mission.surprise_bonus + 2 }
}


etc.

Linear from a coding perspective but refreshing from the gamer's perspective.

Post Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:20 am

Crowley: The full game has an extensive and fun News Network!

Best Regards
Christian "Bargib" Koerner
Editor in Chief, The Lancers Reactor

Post Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:27 am


For those who say the end-game is boring after 15 hours or so: You basically have all the top end equipment, you've made millions doing a lucrative trade run for a few hours, and now it's boring because there's nothing else for you to obtain. Well, all I can say is you get out of a game what you put into it. If you're looking for the fastest possible route to get the best ships and equipment, why would you not expect the game to be over quickly? Why not take your time, resisting the urge to make diamond runs? Try earning money slowly instead of cranking out 10 bounty hunting missions in a row. Every game has an end, or at least a point where it becomes "un-fun" or boring. How quickly you get to that point is up to you.


Debris,
This is exactly what i've been having in my mind when reading posts the last few weeks. Thanks for posting it, so i don't need to.





Post Thu Mar 06, 2003 11:08 am

Agree with you (OP) on most things except the dynamic pricing. If prices fluctuated according the supply and demand, or some reasonable facimile thereof, you could never make a run with a guaranteed profit.

If the game took your trade deliveries as a proxy for the working of the whole economy, so if you delivered X it would apply a multiplier to deliver X+Y then a market might become sated and the bottom fall out of it until stock levels fell and other goods (subtracted from their manufacturing stations) would be in short supply, raising the price.

This would give some purpose and challenge to being a trader, forcing you to scour the universe for opportunity, perhaps in response to rumours picked up on stations, generated by the economics engine. Allow players to choose to keep static prices if they want with an option choice and let those who want to role-play a trader face a real challenge. It would certainly boost longevity.

At the same time cut back on police checks and add some sort of hold-shielding technology to allow more smuggler role-playing. without a radar it is difficult to plot a course around them in the demo at least.

I'm looking forward to my copy arriving, hopefully over the weekend and I have enjoyed the demo. I'm hoping that there will be an expansion pack, something like "Freelance Trader" to extend this fine game.

Post Thu Mar 06, 2003 12:12 pm

stone-d

great idea's

all of em.

as far as making a "sure" profit risk makes it all the more fun


I am the Kwisatz Haderach[![![!

Post Thu Mar 06, 2003 12:47 pm

Great post Debris
I've not played the demo as I've decided to wait for the full game!! (Waited this long.......)
I agree with you, I am going to just drift through exploring as I go. More fun that way. On previous games such as Starlancer I find it fun to complete the game then do it all over to see how many ways it can be done and which way is the most satisfying.
Although you can find fault with anything I appreciate the time and effort they put in to write the game in the first place. Considering the cash you pay for a game and the hours it takes to complete you usually get way over your moneys worth. There will always be improvements that could be made and hey if you are really narked off with the game and think you could do better.....then go away and write a better one that we can all enjoy!!!!
Basically, if you go into a game expecting perfection, your gonna be disappointed
I've long since decided to just see what the game offers and enjoy it for what it is
Games will continually evolve....I'm signing on for the ride

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