I think that the prob is if they copyrighted it, then they legally own the 'addon' - which is not microsoft endorsed, and could be legally sold at that point.....but not sure. Is that the major problem of seeking the copyright? I can only assume it is so!
Also - problem might have been - as you said, that microsoft didn't like the fact that one modder suddenly decided that the microsoft files shouldn't be readable by anyone after they made their changes - it is a little *ahem* - cheeky. I found this by trying to take a peek today at the solararch to see if they had found a solution to a problem - i found they didn't - but on further investigation - i found that if you look in the shiparch.ini file that there are no extra ships or changes in there - but there are 50+ extra ships you can fly??? Don't have a clue what they did there.

I also understand what they did though - cos I would like to make a game mod where people cannot just spawn 999mils worht of equipment and flog it off. I would actually like them to play and enjoy the game, not ruin it by modding round that area, or cloaks/uberhulls/uberweapons, but i have since removed that part from mine! Just have to hope that if you make a mod that is MP playable that servers running it will have a very active admin

You guys are obviously missing the points here.

Gregstar

1: Microsoft will NEVER give permission to people to mod their software.

2: What else would donations be used for but that? Do you think Id be getting thousands of $$$, please people aren't that generous and want everything for free.

3: I'm not yelling at frost-works. People are yelling at us for doing EXACTLY what frost-works did, which is becoming a company and copyrighting their stuff. I don't see anyone flaming them for doing it. So it's OK for them to do it and NOT us?

4: Tried, I get no responce. They are very good at ignoring people.

-----------------------------------------------------

Chips:

First off, where are you getting your legal grounds. You actually think we could SELL TNG in a store LOL. Do you ACTUALLY know what that would involve?

1: We'd have to get a manufacturing liscense for all the boxed and cd's.
2: We'd have to get contracts with various stores to carry our stuff
3: We'd have to get MS's permission first, as WE COULD NOT MAKE TNG A STANDLONE SELLABLE PRODUCT.
4: Plus much much more which we are not even remotely intersted in doing.

Also you say it's ok for MS to encrypt their stuff, but we can't. Mind explaining why? I did it to prevent people from cheating, is that a crime? Look how bad Freelancer is known for cheating on MP. It's the worst game out there for that.

As for what we did, did you ever notice that folder called TNG. All the TNG SPECIFIC FILES ARE IN THERE. WE DID NOT MODIFY THE ORIGINAL MS FILES SO THAT WE COULD NOT BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR BREAKING THEIR ENCRYPTION ON THE ORIGINAL FILES.

Reynen Starfyre
Project Leader: Starfyre Studios
Freelancer: The Next Generation

Reynen: First Man, Get your facts straight before you speak About Frost-Works.

Never Once HAVE we OR WILL we EVER try and copyright something that is NOT ours. We have the Right to Protect OUR models, Nothing else.

And also You need to research things before you accuse us of anything, Micheal Dan, Nor any Paul guy are a Part of the Frost-Works Development team.

I believe we have gone threw this with you on a previous occasion.

Hobbes:

First i think YOU need to calm down and think rationally. I like a good arguement, not some ranting fool who can't think straight because they are so angry.

1: I never accused you of copyrighting what wasn't yours, please quote me if I did. People literally said you weren't copyrighting ANYTHING. As you just said yourself, you are copyrighting something aren't you.

People, like yourself, are making broad assumptions and reading into what is said when it is not there.

2: Since you are blantly calling me a liar, i'll post the emails I have gotten. Paul actually = Peter. I was also talking with a gentlemen by the name of paul and when I added the name to the readme I got the two confused.

So actually this is to your benefit as there is NO one by the name of Paul there, but Microsoft couldn't have know it was a mistake so they will be chasing after someone that doesn't exist. Works out nice for you doesn't it.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Daniel Mihai <[email protected]>
To: Reynen <[email protected]>
Message:

Hello Rey.
I didn't claim i am the lead coder at Forst-works, just a part of the team. It was a error in my expressing of the fact that i'm part of their team now. Duriel put the question that way:"holly6000au: so youre the lead coder for NU eh?
Daniel Mihai: something like that"...no it was NOT something like that, since peter asked about that and I refused...just a confusion here........

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Peter Davies <[email protected]>
To: Reynen Starfyre <[email protected]>
Message:

Greets,

Dan isn't our primary coder - he may be helping out a bit here and there though.

We haven't touched TNG - to be honest I don't even know what's in yours - or other mods - I just know what's going in mine...and I know that our team spends hours coming up with original code - we don't steel - so whoever is saying that is borderline slanderous.

We haven't taken a single thing - code - or otherwise - from any other mod, and every line of code, and piece of art, we come up with is original.

-Peter

---------------------------------------

Now would you care to revise your statements or would you like me to provide more?

Reynen Starfyre
Project Leader: Starfyre Studios
Freelancer: The Next Generation

Edited by - Reynen on 07-10-2003 04:46:49

Ok key things in that email: May help, that is a key pharse. As of yet, he has not official been added to the team. I know Peter has talked to him about comming in and helping out.

another thing, When i say protect, first that means the concept of the ship. The core design, original files (Such as the .lwo, .3ds, etc ...) I do however reaalise that when it is converted to cmp it gets a bit sticky with ownership of the mesh itself. It is hard to explain, but in a nutshell (From my understanding of it) mesh concept copyright is retained by the model creator, the cmp file itself becomes property of MS/DA.
---------------------------------------------

Starfyre Studios would have been ok with the mod you have created and MS would have left you alone if you had not put a copyright on it (Wether it is this mystery Compilation copyright or not).

---------------------------------------------

Truthfully Reynen, think about it.

They have left the community alone for a long time not even bothering the community even when the modders started altering the exe files version numbers. If they were going to attack the modding community of FL they would have done so long before now.

But they knew that if they hammered the fl community with a blanket cease & desist they would in effect have prevented themselves from making as much as they haved from the game. SO they turned a happy blind eye to our activities until you decided to put some kind of Copyright on thier material.

Hobbes:

As I have said many times. We did not try to copyright their material. LIKE YOU GUYS we went to protect the ships spawn created along with his artwork.

So since you guys are doing the same as us, doesnt this mean techincally the same thing can happen to you?

Reynen

Reynen Starfyre
Project Leader: Starfyre Studios
Freelancer: The Next Generation

Ok Reynen I will explain this one more time ....

When a mesh you create is in it's native file format(s), and STANDARD image/digital files you would hold the copyrights to THAT.

But as soon as the mesh was converted into CMP format it became MICROSOFTS Property.

is that clear enough for your now?

-------------------------------

ok now i want to ask you a few questions, i pulled this right off the main page of your site:

---

Posted by bob on Tuesday, October 07 @ 13:02:57 PDT

Ok, look, there have been way to many misunderstandings about this so I'm gonna clarify it here: We NEVER ever intended to copyright anything done by Microsoft, Digital Anvil, or anyone from the modding community that had submitted their stuff to us. we only wanted to copyright OUR ships, our code, and our artwork. nothing more than what we came up with.

---

first question: Since when did Microsofts FL code become yours?

Second: What do you mean 'what we came up with'? it is not what you came up with it is what MICROSOFT & DIGITAL ANVIL came up with.

--------------

SO Reynen YES YOU DID PUT A COPYRIGHT ON MICROSOFTS LEGALLY OWNED INTELECTUAL PROPERTY.

And nothing you can say to any of us will negate that one simple truth,

You violated Federal & International Copyright Laws (As most of us modders have) but unlike you Reynen we do not put copyrights to ourselves for something we do not own or have the right what so ever to copyright.

So reynen I hope your happy, you have managed to single handedly pissed off an entire gaming community, proud of yourself now?

so that in turn means the entire gamin community should be pissed off at NU?, cuz that is what im reading into this, it sounds to me like hobbes is trying to make it sound like NU, has done everything right, in COPYRIGHTING THIER MATERIAL, yet TNG has done wrong in COPYRIGHTING OUR MATERIAL, please tell me the logic in your statement hobbes, your statement is "illogical, and full of speculation" as a certain Vulcan would put it

either that or HOBBES is JEALOUS, or trying to SAVE HIS own hide.

SO Hobbes YES YOU DID PUT A COPYRIGHT ON MICROSOFTS LEGALLY OWNED INTELECTUAL PROPERTY.

And nothing you can say to any of us will negate that one simple truth,

You violated Federal & International Copyright Laws (As most of us modders have) but unlike you Hobbes we do not put copyrights to ourselves for something we do not own or have the right what so ever to copyright.
Second: What do you mean 'what we came up with'? it is not what you came up with it is what MICROSOFT & DIGITAL ANVIL came up with.

your ships, code whatever you have copyrighted Hobbes, is all based of an idea copyrighted by M$, whereas TNG, are making an original idea, with an original storyline, and original ships, Im not talking about the SW, ST, or bab5 ships either, so dont get confused


Edited by - Duriel_LOP on 08-10-2003 03:50:55

Nice copy & paste job. Did you actually read it?

No we have NOT PUT ANY ****ING COPYRIGHTS ON NEW UNIVERSE, LEVEL 2, OR ANY OTHER FL MOD WE MAY WORK ON.

-----------------------------------------------

all of the code used to put your 'unique' idea into freelancer is copyright protected. NOT TO YOU, YOU IGNORANT ****, but to MICROSOFT.

every line of code you use to put in ships, equipment, weapons etc ... was PRE-EXISTING CODE.

and you nor starfyre studios, or any other modder in FL has the right to copyright Freelancer mods. No one has that right except Microsoft.

get your head outa your ass and get educated.

Edited by - Hobbes78 on 08-10-2003 04:07:44

I'm sorry Hobbes, I still only goto High School.

actually, I did read it, So that means even if the copyright Reynen was going to send, I couldnt have gotten my unique idea copyrighted to me, even though none of it is yet even in FL? is that what you are saying? Because lat I checked, me and Hadryon still had everything on paper, or did you code it all into FL for us?

So that also means that NU cant copyright? because all thiers is Pre-existing MS code, or have you made a new engine?

and please dont swear on the forums, this is a ICRA approved site

I think you need to be educated on such matters, no offense to you though

also Hobbes, my genetic make up means it is not possible to have my head up my rectal cavity, it might be different for you though

Edited by - Duriel_LOP on 08-10-2003 04:24:36

Guys, this is getting tedious. We're doing everything we can to verify the authenticity of the original message to Reynen. I think until that is done, discussions about the possible ramifications have been pretty much talked to death (at least on this site). Can we just agree to disagree until we have a verifed issue to discuss? I mean seriously, hasn't everyting really been said at least 3 times by now? Give it a rest.

this comes straight from my Red Dwarf book by Grant Naylor

"The thing about human beings was this: human beings couldn't agree. They couldn't agree about anything. Right from the moment their ancestors first slimed out of the oceans, and one group of sludge thought it was better to live in trees while the other thought it blatantly obvious that the ground was the hip place to be. And they'd disagreed about pretty well everything else ever since.
They disagreed about politics,religion,philosiphy -every-thing. And the reason was this: basically, all human beings believed all other human beings were insane, in varying degrees.
This was largely due to a defective gene, isolated by a group of Danish scientists at the Copenhagen Institute in the late 1960's. This was a discovery which had the potential for curing all humankind's ills, and the scientists, naturally ecstatic, decided to go celebrate by going out for a meal. Two of them wanted to go for a smorgasborad, one wanted Chinese cuisine, another preferred French, while the last was on a diet and just wanted to stay in the lab and type up the report. The disagreement blew up out of all proportion, the scientists fell to squabbling and the paper was never completed. Which was just as well in a way, because if it had been presented, no one would have agreed with it, anyway.
Small wonder, then, that homo sapiens spent most of thier short time on Earth waging war against each other."
the story sound familiar? does to me

had to correct a few typographical errors

Edited by - Duriel_LOP on 08-10-2003 05:00:04

Maybe someone was thinking we would release all our work to the public to use, seeing we "were not allowed to work on it"
because I have seen quite a few posts where people say that the letter is correct and we should give up all our own material, it does sound fishy

Well it does not matter who sent the original realy as it has got every one at each others throats. Cant we all just quit our bickering as devided we fall.

First rule in any fight wind the other side up and get them in fighting.

Who ever wrote this is laughing their T**s off. Any chance we can all act as grown ups and pull together as united we stand and this is the only any one will get any where.