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Counter shields X weapons

If you are stuck in a mission and do not know how to continue, this is the place to ask for help. Missing that elusive Level 10 Shield? Don''t know where to find the lost Ohtori ship? This is the only place where spoilers are allowed!

Post Thu May 22, 2003 6:57 pm

Counter shields X weapons

Is there some list of what shield and/or weapon each faction use in the game??

It will be very usefull when I go to a mission and already know about its weapons and shields, for I can counter them...

Thanks...


------------------------------
Penta Capeaummm...

Post Thu May 22, 2003 7:20 pm

Post Thu May 22, 2003 11:54 pm

Also check out Haens rep list.

It has shield and weapon types for factions.

Post Sun Sep 07, 2003 4:38 am

I'd like to help with this.
I've seen the rep list, and while it's great, I was thinking of something a little simpler, that you could quickly glance at before taking on a mission.

Something like this...

Type Shields Weapons
Mollys Gravitron Neutron
Gaians Gravitron Photon
Corsairs Positron Neutron

Is that what you had in mind?
I'd love to colaborate for an excel spreadsheet.
Any intrest out there?

Thanks,
d

Post Sun Sep 07, 2003 8:52 pm

Here's your litte something a bit simpler: forget about the 'weapon type vs. shield type' thingy. Use graviton shields as long as possible (up to class 8), then use positron shields unless you do most of your fighting against GMG.

Reason: graviton shields are completely unbalanced. Besides being the best overall shield choice based on the weapon types AI enemies are using (none that matter use particle or plasma guns), the graviton shields have one third more capacity than the molecular/positron shields of the same class. Also, the few AI enemies that are using particle/plasma guns have been completely castrated by the ship loadout designers; just scan a Xeno Falcon to see what I mean (one class 3 gun and three class 5ers - even the Xenos themselves have class 6 particle guns, the Outcasts have matching class 8ers).

Here are some simple facts & factors worth to remember:

(1) A graviton shield has one third more capacity/regen than a positron or molecular shield of the same class.

(2) A shield takes 20% less damage from weapons against which it is most effective, 20% more from weapons against which it is weak. Yes, the relation is not symmetrical - the 'weakness' factor should have been 25% instead of 20% to match the 'strength' factor. As a result, a shield takes 50% more damage from weapons against which it is the weakest, compared to a shield of the same capacity that is strongest against these weapons.

Since gravitons have one third more capacity they are still stronger than the shield of the same class that is neutral - and would normally be second-best - against weapons that are most effective against gravitons (particle, plasma). Damage from explosives and alien/codename weapons is type-neutral, so only capacity counts here (big win for the unbalanced gravitons).

(3) A shield of higher class has 1.3689 times the capacity of a shield one class lower (same factor as armour_scale_2).

(4) A heavy fighter shield has 9% more capacity/regen than the light fighter version of that shield.

(5) A freighter shield as 27.5% more capacity/regen than the light fighter version of that shield.

(6) All NPC shields have the capacity of the light fighter graviton shield for that class, regardless of ship type or shield type. NPC shields have virtually no regen (1 per second, or something like that).

Most high-level NPCs with high-damage weapons use either tachyon/neutron weapons (Outcasts, Corsairs) or neutral weapons (Nomads), so the class 10 positron is the best overall choice when you retire and buy yourself a Ferrari. The exception are the GMG because they use powerful photon weapons that eat through positron shields as though they were tissue paper; the other factions that use photon weapons do not use high-level weapons, and the damage from laser weapons is so pityful that you can simply ignore their wielders even if they fly class 9/10 ships (Bounty Hunters, Red Hessians).

Hessian lasers do about 52% of class damage, Bounty Hunter lasers a bit less than 56%. Compare that to 80% for Corsair neutron kit, 81% for Outcast tachyon and 83% for GMG photon. Xeno/Outcast particle guns and the best codenames (DIAMONDBACK, CERBERUS) do 96%, Nomads 105%. That is, if you treat the class 10 weapons as class 9 weapons that are simply too clunky for a class 9 weapon hardpoint.

Note: you can get the nominal damage for a weapon class by computing the damage per second for a Javelin-type missile of that class or by dividing the shield damage rate of a pulse weapon by two. The only value that cannot be obtained this way is for class 4, and you can backfill that by computing the damage factor for some weapon series (say, plasma guns -> 80.0000%) using weapons of other classes and then dividing the damage of the class 4 weapon by that factor. Note: you have to use the exact values from the binary .ini files; if you use the rounded values available in-game or from the overview tables high and wide then you have to expect some round-off errors.

The lead values actually seem to have been specified by the designer as twice the class damage (i.e. exactly the same as Javelin-type missile damage or shield buster shield damage per second), as you can see from the .5 fraction that some values have. I have checked the values against the damage tables for a handful of weapon series (including plasma, outlaw particle etc.) and they match exactly to more than four decimals, i.e. up to the native precision of 32-bit floating point values.

<pre><font size=1 face=Courier>class damage
-------------
1 244.5
2 306
3 373.5
4 474
5 606
6 790.5
7 1045.5
8 1590
9 2445 </font></pre>

EDIT - removed point (7) regarding pulse weapons because it was just plain wrong.

Edited by - Sherlog on 10-09-2003 20:37:37

Post Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:56 pm

@Sherlog, i can't find the .ini file where u can see what damage it will have on shields

but i know that it is 130%/100%/70% (strong/normal/weak)

Post Tue Sep 09, 2003 8:25 pm



I've always heard +/- 20% , where did you get 30%?

Post Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:03 am

Liberty navy uses laser weapons, graviton shields
Bretonia navy uses particle weapons, graviton shields
Kusari navy uses neutron weapons, graviton shields
Rheinland navy uses tachyon weapons, molecular shields


So just get particle weapons and tachyon weapons. Maybe some photons for fast RoF.

Post Wed Sep 10, 2003 8:08 am

DragonBreath, have a look at ./data/equipment/WeaponModDB.ini. The 70%/100%/130% thingy is probably a feature of Michael Dan's Rebalance mod.

-20% is 4/5th, +20% is 6/5th, so the ratio between the least resistant and most resistant is (6/5)/(5/4) = 6/4 = 3/2; i.e. the least resistant shield receives 50% more damage than the most resistant.

Post Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:49 pm

@Sherlog, i had the rebelance on it when i looked at it.... but now my freelancer is mod free

sorry about that... then it is 80%/100%/120% (w/n/g)

then is the graviton shield always the best shield, co'z that shield is about 1/3 better then the other shields (positron or molecular)

If u c some1 in a defender make fireballs from hunter it can be me

Edited by - DragonBreath on 10-09-2003 15:54:46

Post Wed Sep 10, 2003 4:04 pm

In that case, in regards to Pulse fire (Which EVERYONE in MP has):

Graviton (Strong) Protector lVl 7 @ 4303 becomes effectively 6479
Graviton (Strong) Adv. Protector (Titan) lVl 8 @ 5890 becomes effectively 7068

Molecular (Neutral) Adv. Bulwark lvl 8 is 4420
Molecular (Neutral) Barrier lvl 9 is 6050

Positron (Weak) Brigandine lvl 9 @ 6050 becomes effectively 4840
Positron (Weak) Adv. Brigandine lvl 10 @ 8280 becomes effectively 6624

So, unless you feel like paying for the Titan, ($658k + $118k shield)
You are better off with Adv. Brigandine for Eagle and Sabre, but Hammerhead is a problem.

Post Wed Sep 10, 2003 4:07 pm

Yes, the gravitons are the best overall choice. Not only because of their higher capacity but also because their resistance mix is better than that of the other shield types (as I said, none of the AI enemies that matter use weapons that are strongest against gravitons). Even if graviton shields were balanced and had the same capacity as the other shields I still would use gravitons most of the time.

Here is a table that compares the three class 1 light fighter shields with regard to their 'virtual capacity' against various weapon types. As you can see, the graviton is best against all weapon types except plasma/particle where it is 'only' second-best and its virtual capacity is 89% of the best.

<pre><font size=1 face=Courier>weapon type graviton positron molecular
-------------------------------------------------------
neutral 600 450 450
laser/photon 720 360 450
plasma/particle 480 450 540
tachyon/neutron 600 540 360 </font></pre>

The designer who is responsible for the graviton f*ckup should receive intensive instruction with a very large and blunt object, same for the one who botched the weapon type vs. shield factors.

Gameplay would have been more interesting if the weakness/strength factors were large enough to make a perceivable difference. At the very least the factor should be as large as the ratio between shield classes (1.389). As it is, many people are blissfully unaware that there are any differences at all ...

Also, if the factors were symmetrical instead of asymmetrical as they are now (+/- xx% may look symmetrical but it isn't; Rebalance has the same error) then it would be easier and more intuitive to compare shields, especially if the weakness/strength factors were related to the class factor 1.389 in some simple manner (identical to class factor or half or double, whatever). Then you could make equipment choices by reasoning 'class 4 positron protects against the Rheinland neutron/tachyon kit like a class 8 molecular' or something like that.

Post Wed Sep 10, 2003 5:05 pm


The designer who is responsible for the graviton f*ckup should receive intensive instruction with a very large and blunt object, same for the one who botched the weapon type vs. shield factors.


Na, reserved that treatment for the idiot who decided that Nomad Energy Cannons/Blasters
should use NO ENERGY. WTF? Soooooooo ba-roken. Skews MP all to h3ll.

"Got anything for me?" - Trent, A.K.A. 'Mr. Eloquent'

Post Wed Sep 10, 2003 6:29 pm

But most Software Engineers are academic failures who can't do maths !!

Trust me, I saw the maths module results at my university (in which I achieved 97%) and over half the class had marks below 40% for piss easy stuff.

And they only introduced a maths module because a former student working in a pensions firm was told to increase the payouts by 2% and so muliplied by 2 in his code !!!!

Post Wed Sep 10, 2003 7:34 pm

Frobozz, I am sure we can think of something better than the old blunt object treatment for whoever perpetrated the zero drain of Nomad weapons.

The people at DA must have faced some tough choices when Microsoft QA put the shotguns to their heads ('Deliver or else!') but I still feel their are guilty of insufficient resistance against their masterpiece being watered down to casual gamer level. There is nothing wrong with a game being accessible for casual gamers but there is a lot wrong with removing everything above that level entirely (instead of making a difficulty setting or whatever). As a result FL lacks a lot of things that even Privateer had already 10 years ago. Many of these things are in the bleeping game engine but they are just not available in the game as sold, and not all can be re-enabled by mods like Rebalance.

BTW, my earlier post was wrong regarding pulse weapons - I had overlooked the entries for pulse guns in WeaponModDB.ini, and the pulse thingies have the same shield preferences as the laser/photon weapons. Thanks for clarifying this.

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