Although I have every bit of sympathy with all of the folks maintaining this website's codebase, I'm forced to agree with Pinger: even with a cable modem, the load times on the News are getting silly.

This cannot be good for TLR's overall bandwidth usage, and it's getting to the point where new releases hardly see any Comments before they're buried. Guys, this system's broken, badly, and it's clearly not going to get better until you sit down and revise things. It's not that I don't like the "slideshow" code you're using for the images or the other fancy bits, but there has to be a better solution- the current News is a mess.

Personally, I think the News frontend needs to be recoded from scratch. Painful, very painful, but probably necessary. What's happening right now is that:

1. Every single bit of News, no matter what it pertains to, is displayed to every viewer. This is really inefficient.... I for, one, don't care about DS news at all, and would rather not see it. It's not that I don't want to have that option available- certainly I do, if I ever got interested in DS mods. But right now... I get annoyed every time I see DS mods dominating the "front page" of the News, squishing FL modders' months of efforts beneath them. Especially as the DS mod that's up right now (12/3/2004) isn't even NEW. That's just not fair

All I want to see is Mod releases for FL, preferably in a much shorter format, where if one catches my eye, I can click on a link and it'll take me to a longer summary page. Right now... you've got the summary page... and it's duplicating everything on the News page, which seems a bit silly.

Why not just have new Mod releases consist of a limited number of words (say, 200 or less), and let the fancy-shmancy graphics and other things reside on the summary page that's presented on the Download? This would cut your bandwidth usage by a huge amount... and be easier to keep cleaned up... and it would encourage more Comments... and it wouldn't be impossible for 56K users.

2. User settings have gotta get fixed . That needs to be top priority for coding on the 'site. Again, I think I speak for a lot of users when I say... that I only want to see the news I want to see, not everything in one gigantic dump. It's not just my annoyance that DS mods seem to always get the "top slot", although that is irritating ... it's also that the current system is very wasteful of bandwidth and fixing up user preferences would help a lot.

In addition, the search conditions for the mod DB need to be modernized. For example... there's no rating system. So people trolling through the mods aren't going to have any clues as to what sucks, and what doesn't. And the sorting options are all pretty bad- there's no real way, for example, to sort by categories (that isn't full of things that clearly don't fit, as there are only 4).

3. The database of mods is in need of major housecleaning and a rebuild of the database code. Currently, you have dozens of generations of the same mod... all available... and all of them are clogging up the database lookup. Get rid of them. Delete any database entries that aren't:

A. Of extreme importance, either historically ("firsts" in a modding category)

B. The latest version of a given mod.

You only need to announce that this is going to happen... once. After that... just weed out the old entry every time a new mod version is released. If you feel like you should archive the mod files themselves... put them on your FTP and make them available that way, and let users search through them by hand. Don't clog the database with hundreds of irrelevant or ancient listings, for no good reason.

Now, in regards to no. 3...

If I had access to the database administration frontend you use (and if you knew me well enough to trust me with the power, which of course you don't, since I'm pretty new here, so it's a moot point)... I'd do it for you. Willingly, gladly. It might take hours of work, but I'd be willing to clean your house for you... because it needs doing.

I really wish I knew enough ASP coding to offer to recode the front-end, but I'd be more dangerous than helpful, I'm afraid, and my only practical experience with front-end coding for something like this is all phpBB-oriented. But I could help with the most annoying chore of all- removing the deadwood from the mod database. Which is a job that needs to be done by hand, by somebody willing to take the time. If you're interested in having me do this... email me- I may be whining, but I'm willing to put my time where my mouth is

Actually I'm really getting sick of the moaning and groaning...
If you think you can do better your welcome to it...if you have the time and the dedication needed...
I spend more then enough of my free time just to make things interesting and what do I get??? Complaints...You can imagine what I'm thinking but I'm not going to say it...at least not here in the Forums...

"Image over load today, so tried kill off 4mb of pics on the front page"

4 megs??? did you add it up??? or did you just come up with that number???

"Personally, I think the News frontend needs to be recoded from scratch."

When you have the time let me know and you can do it...
I spend too much time on the news as it is...
If I had to spend the time to recode I wouldn't have time for the news and that includes your mod...So who's news do I just forget about???

"I for, one, don't care about DS news at all"

You're not the only person that visits this site.

"All I want to see is Mod releases for FL"

No comment really...none needed...

"If I had access to the database administration frontend you use (and if you knew me well enough to trust me with the power, which of course you don't, since I'm pretty new here, so it's a moot point)... I'd do it for you. Willingly, gladly. It might take hours of work, but I'd be willing to clean your house for you... because it needs doing."

How can you make a statement like that you have no idea what code was used...
There's 30 gigs of data on this site...do you have time to go over it all???

Statements like I read here make me want to say I've had enough...
All I see is the complaints but nothing in the way of hey, I appreciate it...
So as far as I'm concerned you're welcome to it...

And, good luck finding a site that can offer all that we do!!! Which by the way costs you nothing...the bandwidth that we use would cost you a fortune.
And, good luck finding someone to work for free.

You have all by best wishes
Good luck to you
from bp

Well bp time to rethink your attitude.

1. the custom settings don't work in both IE6 and Opera
2. there is almost 4mb of data on the front page because the custom settings not working
3. think about those that are on capped broadband and don't realise there downloading nearly 4mb just to view the front page, because againt the custom settings dont work.
4. finally the do better attitude, your the one that puts up the web content. So you get told something is not working and you go off on a high horse, not good enough.

I don't mean that you're not doing a good job posting up the news, BP... you take it waaaaay too personally if it's all about you.

It's not. It's about the whole News-submission and processing process- how many pictures are submitted, how much text is displayed per News item... editorial issues, not whether or not you're taking care of News very carefully, one item at a time. Those of us, like me, who've submitted News to you know how much you put into this ... and I personally, would like to make your job easier, not harder, by changing the way that News submissions were handled... OK? So... please... don't chomp my head off. I'm not out to hurt you or TLR or anybody who puts work into the 'site in any way. My statements were harsh, and probably too harsh, but they're well-meant.

And yes, I *would* go through your 30 GB of junk items in the DB. By hand. And remove most of it. Show me what you're using as your frontend to maintain the DB (I sincerely hope you aren't doing it by hand-entering items into the SQL tables, but I'll deal with that if I have to), and give me the authority to do it... and I'll start, today. Right now. And I'll get it all done this weekend, because most of it's not hard, merely time-consuming. And your DB will not be full of junk when I'm done. My money's on the table. You can take me up on it whenever you're prepared to.

I can't do the rest, or I would offer, so I'm not trying to slap you around, k? So... like... take some deep breaths, or something. Every critique given to you is not a slap in the face- it's a critique, and it should be accepted as such.

I don't represent everybody, obviously, and you can just ignore me- this ain't my mess, and I'm not responsible for cleaning it up. Obviously, I'm just a minority, and I must like the 'site overall, because I'm here, right? And I *do* like most of the 'site. Just not the News.

And yes, you can read this as my biases as a FL Mod dev. if you want, or whatever... we all have biases, and I bring mine with me just like everybody else. It'd be great if the News was just an "Argh all the time" channel, and nobody saw anything but praise about me, right? Lol... I can't even keep going... at any rate, no, I don't want that, and don't expect that, and I have my own website I can use that for, if that's what I want to do.

But, my biases aside... I think my arguments stand. The 'site's front end is really overloaded, and it's time to change how it's done. Again. Before it hurts TLR.

Here... I'll take a little more time... and put more of my time where my mouth is. Maybe this will convince you that I'm not "out to getcha"... because it's not what I intended, and if you're offended, I'm sorry.

Here's how I think the News for today should look:



Today marks the release of Legends of Ultrae , by Cyberatog.

This is an excellent 112 MB Dungeon Siege MOD for the Utraean Peninsula "Stones of Utrae" map by Irwin Ryan with creative input by Cyberatog. It has been rated highly by Dungeon Siege MOD fans. Extra models by Ghastley, Witness, Omniscient_Colossus, Ikkyo & Snowfox.

Click here to read more about this mod and download it.



XX Dark Side, the Beginning XX Version 2 was released today. Version 1 has been removed from TLR's database, but can be downloaded via our FTP.

Synopsis: The Corsairs, have been exploring and making Trade and Military Deals with all the Pirates of the Sirius Systems, Liberty And Rhineland have been working together to stop the pirates for a long time and for the first time the Pirates are in a position to fight back.

Click here to read more about this mod and download it.



(none, obvously... so this is empty)



Warriors of the Sky hosted by Syphon (with a link to Syphon's blurb)

New Freelancer Dueling League announced by [MC Katak /CPGL/ (with a link to his blurb)

HiVelocity- THE REVENGE announces that their server is doing very well (with link to blurb)



Dog Fight Mod requests Beta Testers (with link to blurb)

Frost Works announces New Universe Mod is getting new soundtrack by Ripperman (with link to blurb)

New Mod Team announced- Onion Man seeks modders! (with link to blurb)

*************************************************************
And that's it. No pictures, just a Comments line below. If people wanna see screenies and other things... they can click on the links.

Waaaaay more efficient on bandwidth. Waaaay easier to write up- now instead of having to worry about spell-checking/grammar-checking about 3 pages' worth of data every day... you can just write some quick and snappy tag-lines, spell-check it, and you're done. Don't even bother spell-checking people's sloppy Blurbs... if they want to look illiterate in front of everybody, that's their problem, not yours. Don't make screenshot pictures, unless you feel like it- modders who submit their mods without any screenies are outta luck. In short, do less not more.

Easier for you, easier on visitors with low-bandwidth connections, less likely to have browser issues, and no differentiation between DS and FL modding communities, so it doesn't have to be controversial, and it doesn't involve fixing the User Settings...

Edited by - Argh on 12/4/2004 4:21:23 AM

...and here are some graphics for headers. Not great stuff, but again, I put my time where mouth is

Some patience on both ends would serve everyone well here.

I am currently getting paid to learn all this stuff folks (not here at TLR) using Dreamweaver MX, Fireworks, SQL server 2000, MS Web Matrix, VB 6.0, VB.Net and a very kewl program called Arelis. Patience, you'll soon have an in-house web designer that can make the site really become a pleasure to view.

Patience.... We may not please everyone, but we agree there's room for improvement and we appreciate all the offers of help, we really do. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Rob "Stinger" Lordier
Creator of the original Privateer FAQ
3+ years here and still lovin' every minute!
Favorite saying - Life is a journey, not a destination

Edited by - Stinger on 12/3/2004 2:38:58 PM

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4. finally the do better attitude, your the one that puts up the web content. So you get told something is not working and you go off on a high horse, not good enough.

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Pinger...It would be fairly hard to do better than bp is doing now. He spends his own time working on this website for free, just for the enjoyment of others, and you have the nerve to come here and criticize not just his work, but him?! I would like to see you, not only do a better job, but be as devoted to the site as he is. Without him, the site would have turned to mush quite a while ago, and you'd be without TLR at all. Think about what you're saying before you open your mouth.

Edited by - parabolix on 12/3/2004 2:49:21 PM

We complain that theres too much content on the front page, answer we get told to use the Custom settings to block it.

Now I get to the point where on my ADSL line it takes 68 seconds at 55kB so 3.7mb of data has been loaded and the So called custom settings don't work. So that would take someone on 56k the better part of 11mins to fully load the front page.

@Parabolix:

Yeah, I have to agree that that was a wee bit much. I know that Pinger was mainly just reacting to BP's response (which was pretty hot and bothered, but I think we deserved a little flaming hehe)...

At any rate, as I said before, I'm not trying to attack anybody, nor imply that BP is lying around eating bonbons or something. He's not, and I know it... instead, I wonder if he has, like... a life. Because the last time I checked, he was:

1. Hand-editing mod news releases 1 by 1
2. Personally testing every mod submitted (including my last release, which had a nasty bug in it)
3. Going through all of the email to respond to dozens of posts about all sorts of blarney

I know that that stuff doesn't take that long , but when added to having a life outside of sitting around online all day... sheesh... no wonder he gets a little peeved. At any rate, I was trying (clumsily) to help... and take care of the problems with the News the way it is now. I saw Pinger's post as a chance to talk about this area of the 'site, which I feel is crushed under its own weight of past choices.

Many of which, in retrospect, were bad, imho- for example do you really need all those teeny buttons to mod 'sites? Couldn't you just have one that says "Links?", like most major 'sites do? Sure you could... and probably should. But, instead, I count nearly 30 different buttons... most of which may (MAY) get clicked on by users... maybe once a day. But every visitor who views the News uses up that bandwidth to deliver those graphics, whether or not they're useful to the user. At an average of 2.1 KB apiece (a rough guestimate based on a few clicks)... that's 60KB in little buttons... alone. Let alone the rest of the big, colorful graphics...

See? It's not just one thing... it's a collection of small things. And they add up to one big mess. When TLR nearly disappeared from bandwidth woes last month, I could've just about cried- I'd gotten done Alpha 2, and was thinking, "oh, great, now I have nowhere to release my mod". At least... nowhere that actually mattered. TLR is it if you want to get coverage for FL modding.

How much of that was sheer bandwidth wastage, caused by an inefficient frontend? You'd have to present some very convincing numbers in terms of usage before I'd believe that most of the frontend even gets viewed by most users of the 'site, let alone serves a purpose that couldn't be done in a more optimized way.

EDIT

I've tried to send the graphics and the example code to BP twice in the last 5 hours... mail bounced. Methinks I am getting shunned ... and the sad part is, that I wasn't intending to annoy him in the first place. Ah well, live and learn... at least he didn't ban me

Edited by - Argh on 12/3/2004 3:40:28 PM

To those that haven't a clue, Bp's work he does, is very time concuming. I have seen a big hunk of the front page code, and setting it up does take time. There is No lay out, functionality, that will please everyone. @Pinger, I do have dial up, it takes about 4 min to load the whole front page, if I stay on it, but, so do a lot of other web sites on the internet. A site can not be all text, that would be very boring. I am working on a single thread, A directory thread, in the fanfiction area, just updating and posting story links for all the stories and RP's there. It is a small task, but takes me time, so I can easyily simpithise with BP, who is doing a whole page worth of news nd pics, and lets not forget, he takes the screenshots and all too, which takes time, and tests the mods as well that are posted.

So before even trying to complain, step in to the shoes first, and see, before complaining.

And, like a news paper, you can simple scroll down past the things that don't interest you, till you get to what does. Simple.

BP, you do, do good work. Thanks, from me to you.

Edited by - Finalday on 12/3/2004 4:02:20 PM

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I know that that stuff doesn't take that long

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Yes...it does

Regarding those on dial-up. While I do realize in some places, you can be unable to get high-speed, I still make the argument that technology is changing with the times. You can't expect websites to cater to those on dial-up as it isn't the "current" technology. As technology advances you will see that more complex just about everything. Using old formats and such in an age where most internet connections can load them up in a flash is like buying a flat in Topeka rather than a mansion in Malibu

Edited by - parabolix on 12/3/2004 4:46:07 PM

Before i start the meaty part of this post, which may get rather long winded, i would like to say one thing. I don't care if some moderator comes by and deletes this post, or bans me for that matter for what I'm about to surely breaks some abhorrently well defined code of conduct i could easily find buy clicking one of the over-sized links the average moron that reads this forums has required in the past. Now on to my rant.

You guys REALLY give baked a lot of **** (maybe some of the other mods/staff, but BP is a personal Friend of mine), and not a single flipping (yes i said flipping instead of another word) idea of the amount of time, energy, and stress involved with this "volunteer" assignment. He fixes your submissions, spends countless our playing very bad mods to make sure they work, and rarely gets a HEAR FELT thank you, just the occasional token "Thanks". Wake the **** up retards and smell the sweat!! This man does nothing aside from try to improve the site and the feedback is to the tune of "You can do better" and "Needs to be redone from scratch". You can Kiss my ass, and i said that for BP cuz he's too damned respectful to say it on this forum. "You need to change your attitude" WOW, how the hell is his attitude bad. 95% of what he does gets crapped on, and the rest goes unnoticed. This man has learned to use photo-shop ( he was an utter imaging moron not long ago) so that the pics HE MAKES for submissions are of higher caliber. He tries to breathe some life and humor into a community woefully brimming with braying jackasses. Ever wonder why some of these posts get flamed? Try forming your god damned *****ings as constructive criticisms and you'll get an ungodly amount of respect. Pucker up.



Edited by - Spawn on 12/3/2004 5:03:31 PM

Edited by - Spawn on 12/3/2004 5:05:42 PM

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Wake the **** up retards and smell the sweat!!

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What sweat ? bp KNEW the responsibility he was going to put on his shoulders when Bargib handed over the site, and now he's going around saying "I get no thanks, all I get are complaints". What do you expect bp ? It's a controversial decision about including Dungeon Siege forums and mods, and alot of people don't like the change !. I for one don't much care, but as soon as we get the "Poor me, look at all the work I have to do, you guys don't appreciate what I do ... " attitude, it gets to me. You *VOLUNTERED* TO TAKE BARGIB'S JOB !! You didn't HAVE to, you DID. Accept that people are NEVER going to be satisfied with your decisions and quit saying "you guys don't appreciate me" and you're pretty much on your own ...