what about Cygnus X-1, birdman?



and here's the cowwesponding Wiki articule..

..the point being of course that you cannot ever see a black hole, only the light (and other radiation) of the stuff that falls in it. Cygnus X-1 has been pretty much established as being a black hole since the early '70s (even before Rush made a record about it.)

anyway, didn't you fall into a black hole in a Space 1999 episode?





Edited by - Tawakalna on 12/3/2006 8:19:10 AM

We cannot really know where matter goes in a blackhole because of the fundamental problem black hole's bring to the area of theoretical physics. Quantum mechanics has been established for dealing with things on a quantum level - usually where gravity almost has no influence at all, and the theory of general relativity deals with the very large, where gravity has a lot of influence. In a black hole, these two theories collide. The quantum singularity that is of infinite density in the center of a black hole requires quantum mechanics to be described, but at the same time it is bending space on a quantum scale with gravity. If you try to use both the theories, you get nonsensical predictions like the universe is going to blow up or something crazy like that. Its presenting a theory that combines both quantum physics and general relativity that has been the focus of ideas like string theory.

And Finalday, black holes have massive amounts of evidence to prove their existance. They were originally theorized by Stephen Hawking, and then we found one. There is no reason whatsoever to speculate that black hole's don't exist - if they don't exist, how are you going to explain all of the phenomena that occur because of them? With some kind of supermassive star? Black holes make things happen that aren't possible in any other way.

Edited by - blackhole on 12/3/2006 11:58:08 AM

isn't that the so-called unified field theory?

M-thoery, or the theory of everything that is a combination of the 5 versions of string theory, is.

I've got a great book by Brian Greene on the subject (a pure genious in the field), but as I recall, M-Theory is not quite complete yet.

No, it isn't. If it was, well, we wouldn't be having this conversation, would we? In fact string theory as a whole is starting to lose favor with physicists and there are some who are now looking for alternate possibilities. Only time will tell what will happen.

A nebula is real, I've seen a pic or two of them. I seen pics of stars, moons, asteroids, metors. But until someone can get me a picture of a blackhole, I will not except they are anything more than a therory. The telescopes we currently have, hav'nt, that I know of, recorded a blackhole. If there are indeed "Unexplained" things happening in the stars, there then can be an unknow possiblity of what is causing it, including a few I would list, but lancers wouldn't allow them.

Edited by - Finalday on 12/3/2006 1:04:16 PM

silly birdman! it's impossible to take a pic of a black hole, because of the stuff falling in it giving off all the light and other radiation! in fact, if you were actually to the get to the point that you could see the black hole, it'd be curtains for you because you'd be falling into it. Besides if your criteria for something existing is a picture of it, then i can think of many things that you can't take pictures of that do exist. And besides, were i follow your path of argument, one could posit that those nebula pictures are fakes and that nebulae don't exist. of course that's a silly argument, but when you think about, because of the distance the light travels and the time it takes, you aren't seeing an actual photo of the nebulae, you're seeing it as it was x million years ago. it might not be there anymore now.

why do you find it so impossible to believe? it's another aspect of nature, another piece of creation that helps us understand how the miracle of the Universe works. You might as well turn round and say stars are just little points of fire in a big sphere thats a few hundred miles away that rotates around the Earth. Part of the human adventure is finding out about all this stuff and figuring out how it all ticks, you can't just pretend it isn't real just because it's hard to understand. Lawks, i sounded like a Star Trek trailer then.

That's another point - you're a big Trek fan, you've even said you "could live in that universe, easily." How would you go on if Cap'n Baldy asked you to scan the black hole on Sector 37-Delta mark 4 and you said, "sorry Captain, but I don't believe in blackholes so I'm not going to carry out your orders..." You'd be pondering the wisdom of your actions in the brig because your beloved Star Trek positively absolutely accepts the existence of black holes and associated spatial phenomena.

And you've never seen a picture of Esquilax but you believe he exists, so there; there's lots of things you'll never see a picture of but you believe in their existence. i believe in ghosts and other supernatural phenomena but I doubt I'll ever see a picture of any, well, one that isn't faked, i mean.

Sorry to go on at you FD but you don't 'arf say some bizarre stuff at times! It's a good job I like you so much, I think that Waltons Mountain air was a bit too fresh for you!

Agreed Taw. Sorry FD, but I must say that your viewpoint is quite silly. How many thousands of black holes do we know about? I've never seen a picture of the ruler of Czechoslovakia but I know he existed. I've never seen a picture of the mayor of Cathmandu, but I know he/she is real. And it's the same laws of physics that explain why stars and nembulae form that explain why black holes form and how they function.



Edited by - Killa on 12/3/2006 9:32:10 PM

He just got too excited up in Jellystone Park, that's all.


FD's holiday pic...

Edited by - Tawakalna on 12/4/2006 2:26:38 PM

Silly or not, I'm waiting on hard evidence.

you're hopeless....

anyway i take it that you don't watch the Disney classic "The Black Hole" on principle then? it's on again this Christmas, I'm really looking forward to it, haven't seen it for a while.

Actually, I have seen The Black Hole, the one with Maximilian Schell but it too is based on conjecture, no proof, like a satillite or other hard means investigating it. Jupiture and other planets have been maped by satilite and other planitary items, I can then except them. Just shoot a satilite over to one of the black hole, and you'll get my attention.

Based on conjecture and requiring proof? There are many popular beliefs in society can be labelled as such, and yet they are considered to be true by the faithful. In any case, there is also no evidence definately proving that BHs don't exist.

Note: I'm not taking sides here, I just wanted to "throw that one out there" as they say.

Edited by - esquilax on 12/4/2006 5:30:37 PM