i'm not a scientist so i don't know jack(there, was that so hard? ) but i agree with Fear Factor - we should be concerned about the impact energy waste and urban sprawl have on humanity, but i think that should also include a long-term view of the future when the world is reaching a breaking point between the rise of the ICE and the decline of fossil fuel

everyone dismisses electric cars, but they are the future. why? well, energy production! batteries are _more_ efficient than hydrogen as a storage medium because hydrogen must be produced through 'cracking' H2O - and with current technologies they have equivalent energy densities - e.g a hydrogen car won't go any further than an EV and fueling it will take more energy without a hydrogen-production breakthrough EV and hybrid tech(dubious advantages) is here now, yet hydrogen is far away in the future when the whole grid is nuclear. Why do you think the anti-greens are so supportive of hydrogen and dismissive of EV? because EV cars would reduce the need for oil by 75% or more NOW! Think about it, would an EV with a 150 mile range be more than adequate for daily driving? For the majority of the population, the answer is yes - but for the auto manufacturers the answer is a nightmare of implications - 50% or more of auto mechanics out of work - the rest needing to be retrained, the engine parts market would plummet, and dealers would sell less cars as a result of EV's lasting longer - not to mention they'd lose money on regular services like oil changes

believe it or not, there was a time when electric cars made up a significant portion of the market (28% in the early 1900's!) - then the rapid expansion in oil production and refining made the ICE(internal combustion engine) the more economical choice - even though it was less reliable, smelled horrible, and made loud noises that disturbed the peace.

the good news is, you don't have to wait for the auto industry to catch up with your sensibilities! EV conversion kits are now available online, and if you have 8-10k you can convert your smelly ICE vehicle to clean electricity yourself. Of course, the problem with this is the scaled-cost - if 50% of cars were electric now, battery prices could drop by half making the EV a real economy car, from sticker price to operating cost. Worried about getting some performance? Think EV's have to drive like golfcarts? think again!

hydrogen is a red herring my friends, do not fall for its futuristic allure!

Edited by - Cold_Void on 8/10/2006 6:41:51 PM

@macc: You'd be amazed at how many people don't know what dihydrogen oxide is.

im not to sure about global warming being caused totally by us, nor totally natural, i think we may be impacting it some.

Im not well versed on hydrogen, nor am i on electric, but i have yet to see either car match a normal vehical in acceleration or power. Id like to see a electric truck pull 5000 pounds for 300 miles... they have hybrids for a reason, what do you think all trains are? all modern train engines are electric motors. They get the power for those motors from diesel engines. straight electric would involve manyh miles of line, and straight diesel would take to much fuel. hense the electric-diesel combo. it may be we are already doomed. we may not be. Ill leave you with this. People thought the world was ending in the dust bowl of the early 1900's. Hot and dry for a number of years. In the early 70s, it was fairy cool and moist (relativly speaking) now i think the pendulum has swung the other way yet again...

007

Voilà! In view, a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of Fate.The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta, held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous. Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose vis-à-vis an introduction, and so it is my very good honor to meet you and you may call me V.

V from V for Vendetta

If everyone agrees that Climate Change (the current Administration's politically corrected reference) is happening and if everyone agrees that this change seems to be a general increase in average annual temperatures, in the net loss of ice mass in our glaciers ... including in Antarctica, a general increase in the frequency and force of storms - hurricanes, tornados and noreasters ....
then maybe the question should be whether we ought to continue to do as we have done ... which is to assume that we have no influence on global climate and not care at all about it or consider the possibility that we do have an influence on global climate and take measures where we can to minimize it.

I agree with FF and everyone else who have made reference to renewable energy technologies. We should cut back on our almost one track dependence upon burning carbon based fuels (trees, coal, oil, methanol etc.). We should push our governments to grant financial incentives for industries to adopt other technologies to provide energy for their factories and transportation vehicles.


Edited by - Indy11 on 8/10/2006 9:23:35 PM

but another side to that argument (and I'm not saying I disagree with you) is that many of the "renewable" energy sources have environmental impacts of their own. Wind farms are ugly and noisy, we've got quite a few nearby and they're really not very pleasant to be around. TIdal barrages are major civil engineering projects that have significant impacts on the ecosystems of the river estuaries they're on and also slow the Earth's rotation (I've actually visted one, in N France)
Solar energy is great if you live somewhere thats usually sunny, but it's inefficient and hard to store. Hydro-electric. well, that's a good one, but it's already widely used and even there, dams have a major impact on the surrounding ecosystems, clean as they are; look at the controversy over the 3 Gorges dam in China.

I think we can safely forget about mad ideas regarding beaming microwaves from space, etc, for the next few decades at any rate.

And I think it's a foregone conclusion that in Oceania, erm I mean the US and Airstrip One, oops there i go again, I mean, the "United Kingdom," there's going to be a flurry of nuclear power station building over the next few years. Now personally I'm not as anti-nuclear as I used to be, it's come a long way since the 70s in terms of safety and unlike the energy sources cited above, it has the propensity for proven generating capacity without having to cover the country in windmills or solar panels, or block up the rivers or flood valleys. Having said that, I wouldn't want to live next door to one (or downwind for that matter.) especially if it's a rubbish American PWR and not a decent British AGR or Magnox.

And sadly the reality is that even if all the generating capacity were taken uo by other non-fossil sources magically overnight, there's still all the manufacturing usage of carbon-based fuels and all the cars and trucks and buses and ships and planes. Hands up everyone who's going to walk or cycle to work everyday, or travel on sailing ships across the Atlantic! I wouldn't mind myself, but we live in an era of mass transportation, do we not?

So it's not just a case of gradually switching energy sources, it's a realisation that there is a significant price to paid fpr that switch, and also that alone it's not sufficient, we have to seriously question how our transport infrastructure works and that the mass convenience that we currently enjoy (or suffer if it's rush-hour) cannot continue indefinitely. For Americans this will be particularly difficult as you're in love with your cars, and your whole country is basically designed around cars. How will you get around? People without cars in the US essentially might as well have their legs removed, unless theyre fortunate enough to live in a city with a decent public transport system (so that's Houston and LA out of the picture for starters)

and then there's architecture; great big skycrapers burning lights all night, air-conditioning, central heating, or those energy inefficient wooden framed house that builders throw up all over the place. Just cos your mum uses some energy saving lightbulbs and recycles her refuse doesnt make a great deal of difference when your house is wasting heat in the winter and soaking up energy in summer when the a/c is on. So maybe we should look at other cultures that have adapted to urban life in hot climates and how they manage/managed before industrialisation. Oh my goodness me, those nasty Araby types in those desert places seem to have achieved a very sophisticated urban culture and coped admirably, with wind traps and water distribution systems, even ice makers, hundreds of years before anyone invented an engine. Still, look at them now, eh, running around doing all that terror stuff, wearing all those head things too....

erm...straying off topic somewhat...

I think the best benefit of widely spread nuclear reliance would be the eventual disarmament that would result as fuel is consumed. the merits of blowing up an insignificant country that happens to contain some squatters with a rival belief system vs the cost of development, the waste of fissile material and energy, and the certainty of retaliation would do an adequate job of dissuading the world from destroying itself in my view....

unless they're f'ing crazy - in which case there are no alternatives but drastic intervention. an apt analogy: its like when someone in a hospital gown is trying to buy a handgun - you've gotta call the cops and men in white coats, not just declare an embargo - and if they actually get the gun, the cops may feel compelled to shoot them before asking what the problem is

An Addidtional fallout of the warming currently in the news. Ice to water though I refuse to belive the leve of increas. Ice allways takes up more space than water. And raising it 21 feet world wide? Doubtful.

Linky

its not ice melting that raises the sea level, but the same thermal expansion that makes thermometers work - if the sea warms by 5 degrees globally the net effect on available landmass will be bad - catastrophic for areas not far enough above sea level like oceania - not to say its going to occur over night and drown anyone though

the real threat from ice melt is disruption of the world wide ocean current that circulates hot and cold water and basically regulates weather - its only another theory, but theoretically adding fresh water to the salt water will changes it buoyancy and prevent or slow it from descending to the cooler depths and cause local heat build ups that would precipitate(pun) more hurricanes and floods - whether it could actually happen is questionable but the effect warmer ocean water has on hurricanes and flooding is not in doubt

al gore and george bush suck - neither presents a reasonable view of global warming because they're both corporate shills working to obscure reasonable solutions with hyperbolic speeches about dire consequence and alarmist tree hugging. the last people we should look to for guidance on climate change is politicians - thats my two cents and all i've got to say about global warming

Edited by - Cold_Void on 8/11/2006 6:47:25 AM

This isnt ethical to have a topic this long not on Freelancer, its summer! can we talk about this later!! im a freelancer and sci-fi writer, its too complex for my small brain, all i know, is that its really hot, oh crud hold on says windows had system error, wait, okay nvm, anyway all i know is its hot, and i think that global warming is the Order's biggest next enemy, Zeta1's exiting new novel!
FREELANCER: OSIRIS! A DAY AT THE BEACH!! Will Trent be able to say more stupid stereotpical lines while King blabs on about Pittsbugh's cheap drinks while Juni screams she cant find Walker!?!!!??!! READ THE LATTEST FREELANCER COMMEDY, im mean, THRILLER NOW!

When all else fails, tell them you want world peace.

Edited by - Zeta1 on 8/11/2006 7:26:20 AM

I haven't noticed any of these patterns that everyone on the news is squawking about I think they are blowing it out of proportion they only thing i've seen is a typical rural maryland summer, warm/hot and humid with lots of bugs, the max so far at my house has been 95 F which isn't that hot when you think about it the record if i remember right is 105 F but i could be wrong.