yeah
agent orange is aful... killed many american soilders later napalm was bad 2
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Vietnam
This is where you can discuss your homework, family, just about anything, make strange sounds and otherwise discuss things which are really not related to the Lancer-series. Yes that means you can discuss other games.
46 posts
• Page 2 of 4 • 1, 2, 3, 4
Sun Sep 12, 2004 10:30 am
@ All
The Vietnam "War"? What is that?!
I've heard of a Vietnam Policing Action lead by the USA at the same time but never any war.
-~-~-~-~
You have called down the Thunder. Now reap the Whirlwind.
Warning! In the intrest of safety it is advisable to keep Heltak away from Fire and Flames!
He that humbleth himself wishes to be exalted.
Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
Friedrich Nietzsche
The Vietnam "War"? What is that?!
I've heard of a Vietnam Policing Action lead by the USA at the same time but never any war.
-~-~-~-~
You have called down the Thunder. Now reap the Whirlwind.
Warning! In the intrest of safety it is advisable to keep Heltak away from Fire and Flames!
He that humbleth himself wishes to be exalted.
Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Sun Sep 12, 2004 11:38 am
Why are you so fasinated with this war? I ask this because no war is good, no matter how it turns out. I say this even though the revoluitionairy war was fought and a country was born, many still died on both sides. Wars are mans result of a failure to find a peaceful way to end a conflict and with power strugles by those who want total power over others.
Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:41 pm
@taw: only all the time, yeah.
i have some morbid fascination with this war. I think its really interesting that its when the rules changed, gone were the days of troops vs troops, its thining on your feet, teenagers with guns. The reality of the war is so different to any major war before or since, that i find it curious
i have some morbid fascination with this war. I think its really interesting that its when the rules changed, gone were the days of troops vs troops, its thining on your feet, teenagers with guns. The reality of the war is so different to any major war before or since, that i find it curious
Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:09 pm
very true, it did mark a watershed in military terms. it wasn't the first guerilla war though, just the biggest. and even that is not the whole truth, because the insurgent element had largely been defeated after the Tet Offensive; the bulk of the fighting was done by NVA regulars, not by the VC, who really only served as nusiance forces harassing supply lines and population centres.
although rarely admitted by the US Army, they were glad to be out of Vietnam. the strain on the troops, ven the volunteers and the officer corps, was rotting the Army from the inside. Drug addiction was rampant both in combat and out, discipline was failing and several senior Generals inc the Chiefs of Staff predicted that to maintain a combat presence in Vietnam would so cripple the US Army that it would cease to be an effective fighting force.
Unf the US govt going right back to Truman and Ike utterly failed to understand Ho Chi Minh and his communists. They were nationalists as much as they were communists, they didn't take orders from Moscow, they wwanted to kick out the French. Ho's OSS handlers, who remained great friends with him for many years afterwards, were always appalled and saddened at the Govts ignorance in this matter. Ho admired the US and was deeply shocked when the US allowed the French to return, who'd been kicked out by the japanese who inturn had been kicked out by the Viet Minh. Ho felt betrayed but still clung on to a belief that he could negotiate a settlement through the US, who he beliebved favoured national self-determination over colonial rule. But they refused to talk to him, because he was a Red. Did youknow btw thatfor a short time after the war, Vietnam was garrisoned and administered by Britain? it was known as the Annamese Mandate. Britain could have vetoed the American decision to let the French re-establish colonial rule, but.. we didn't. So Britain is not entirely withou blame for the chain of events that brought about the debacle that was the Vietnam conflict, which ultimately even the victors got precious little material benefit out of.
*back* So after a decade of fighting and the destruction of the US backed and armed French occupation forces, HO brings the US to the bargaining table in the early 50's, after the decisive victory at Dien Bien Phu. A UN plebiscite makes Ho and his communists the popular choice for a new national govt, because they're national heroes who drive out the colonial oppressors. And what does the US do? veto it cos they can't stomach a "communist" winning, and instead set up a puppet govt in the South largely made up of brutal and corrupt soldiers and policemen, crooked business men and racketeers. The legitimate and popular govt, now controlling the North, is forced to look to the Soviet Union for help as the US is now pouring arms and money into the South to prop it up against the more experienced and capable Viet Minh , now NVA, under General Giap. As time went by this propping up became more aggressive, probing and raiding NV territory and airspace
Advice from Ho's former US advisors and trainers as to the realities of the situation were completely ignored. Ho was a communist therefore he was the enemy. ironically, he would have been more than happy to be America's communist as he didn't like the Russians one bit, and he totally mistrusted Stalin and his successors. Ho was a very clever and brave man btw. He was universaly admired and respected, even by his actual and his erstwhile enemies.
The entire war was utterly unnecessary and served no purpose whatsoever except to make arms manufacturers very wealthy. Makes you wonder doesn't it?
apart from extremely stupid ultra-patriots, nearly everyone (with a brain) now recognises it to have been a terrible mistake. All the Vietnamese ever wanted as a people was a single unified country under a govt of their own choosing without foreign interference. The USA has never and prob never will apologise for the misery its policies and actions through different administrations inflicted on Vietnam - it should apologise, but national pride and a stupid machismo will always prevent it from doing so.
I didn't want to get into this, but "what the hey?" to quote Fred from Scooby-doo.
Taw factoid - at one stage the US bombing of North Vietnam was so intense that the USAF and USN ran out of bomb casings! They had to buy some thousands of ex-US casings back off the West German Luftwaffe, which they'd sold to them some years earler, at US$2 each; the wily Germans stung the Americans and sold them back at US$10 each - neat, huh?
and i never even needed to explain the bungling handling of the war (thanx to Arch) by the US commanders, compared to Giap's clever and innovative tactics, which almost always gave him the initiative, and which rarely turned out bad for him. The Tet Offensive was a military failure, but struck terror and despair into the US forces, the South Vietnamese govt and military (who were rubbish anyway) and importantlyinto US and foreign reporters and camera teams. It was at this stage in the conflict that Walter Cronkite issued his watershed condemnation of the war, which was a profound factor in the irreversible public hostilty to the war that now became more focused, and was to have major consequences in the political destiny of the USA.
By contrast, every US offensive or successful defence, only added to the perception that American soldiers, generally younger than in previous wars, were dying for nothing. Y'see, American thinking is that no-one gets left behind, and they'll go all out to get their people back. So if a plane went down in the jungle, helicopters would be sent to get the crew. The NVA and VC knew this, and would shoot the choppers down. More choppers would be sent out, they'd get shot down, until a ground force went out, which would be ambushed. US forces were coralled into safe zones and fortified bases and could only place a limited reliance on local forces and the population. Only the Special Forces enjoyed any freedom of movement and were able to take the initiative in the field. But this in itsef had negative consequences.
Edited by - Tawakalna on 9/12/2004 5:42:23 PM
although rarely admitted by the US Army, they were glad to be out of Vietnam. the strain on the troops, ven the volunteers and the officer corps, was rotting the Army from the inside. Drug addiction was rampant both in combat and out, discipline was failing and several senior Generals inc the Chiefs of Staff predicted that to maintain a combat presence in Vietnam would so cripple the US Army that it would cease to be an effective fighting force.
Unf the US govt going right back to Truman and Ike utterly failed to understand Ho Chi Minh and his communists. They were nationalists as much as they were communists, they didn't take orders from Moscow, they wwanted to kick out the French. Ho's OSS handlers, who remained great friends with him for many years afterwards, were always appalled and saddened at the Govts ignorance in this matter. Ho admired the US and was deeply shocked when the US allowed the French to return, who'd been kicked out by the japanese who inturn had been kicked out by the Viet Minh. Ho felt betrayed but still clung on to a belief that he could negotiate a settlement through the US, who he beliebved favoured national self-determination over colonial rule. But they refused to talk to him, because he was a Red. Did youknow btw thatfor a short time after the war, Vietnam was garrisoned and administered by Britain? it was known as the Annamese Mandate. Britain could have vetoed the American decision to let the French re-establish colonial rule, but.. we didn't. So Britain is not entirely withou blame for the chain of events that brought about the debacle that was the Vietnam conflict, which ultimately even the victors got precious little material benefit out of.
*back* So after a decade of fighting and the destruction of the US backed and armed French occupation forces, HO brings the US to the bargaining table in the early 50's, after the decisive victory at Dien Bien Phu. A UN plebiscite makes Ho and his communists the popular choice for a new national govt, because they're national heroes who drive out the colonial oppressors. And what does the US do? veto it cos they can't stomach a "communist" winning, and instead set up a puppet govt in the South largely made up of brutal and corrupt soldiers and policemen, crooked business men and racketeers. The legitimate and popular govt, now controlling the North, is forced to look to the Soviet Union for help as the US is now pouring arms and money into the South to prop it up against the more experienced and capable Viet Minh , now NVA, under General Giap. As time went by this propping up became more aggressive, probing and raiding NV territory and airspace
Advice from Ho's former US advisors and trainers as to the realities of the situation were completely ignored. Ho was a communist therefore he was the enemy. ironically, he would have been more than happy to be America's communist as he didn't like the Russians one bit, and he totally mistrusted Stalin and his successors. Ho was a very clever and brave man btw. He was universaly admired and respected, even by his actual and his erstwhile enemies.
The entire war was utterly unnecessary and served no purpose whatsoever except to make arms manufacturers very wealthy. Makes you wonder doesn't it?
apart from extremely stupid ultra-patriots, nearly everyone (with a brain) now recognises it to have been a terrible mistake. All the Vietnamese ever wanted as a people was a single unified country under a govt of their own choosing without foreign interference. The USA has never and prob never will apologise for the misery its policies and actions through different administrations inflicted on Vietnam - it should apologise, but national pride and a stupid machismo will always prevent it from doing so.
I didn't want to get into this, but "what the hey?" to quote Fred from Scooby-doo.
Taw factoid - at one stage the US bombing of North Vietnam was so intense that the USAF and USN ran out of bomb casings! They had to buy some thousands of ex-US casings back off the West German Luftwaffe, which they'd sold to them some years earler, at US$2 each; the wily Germans stung the Americans and sold them back at US$10 each - neat, huh?
and i never even needed to explain the bungling handling of the war (thanx to Arch) by the US commanders, compared to Giap's clever and innovative tactics, which almost always gave him the initiative, and which rarely turned out bad for him. The Tet Offensive was a military failure, but struck terror and despair into the US forces, the South Vietnamese govt and military (who were rubbish anyway) and importantlyinto US and foreign reporters and camera teams. It was at this stage in the conflict that Walter Cronkite issued his watershed condemnation of the war, which was a profound factor in the irreversible public hostilty to the war that now became more focused, and was to have major consequences in the political destiny of the USA.
By contrast, every US offensive or successful defence, only added to the perception that American soldiers, generally younger than in previous wars, were dying for nothing. Y'see, American thinking is that no-one gets left behind, and they'll go all out to get their people back. So if a plane went down in the jungle, helicopters would be sent to get the crew. The NVA and VC knew this, and would shoot the choppers down. More choppers would be sent out, they'd get shot down, until a ground force went out, which would be ambushed. US forces were coralled into safe zones and fortified bases and could only place a limited reliance on local forces and the population. Only the Special Forces enjoyed any freedom of movement and were able to take the initiative in the field. But this in itsef had negative consequences.
Edited by - Tawakalna on 9/12/2004 5:42:23 PM
Sun Sep 12, 2004 4:15 pm
the thing i find very interesting is that rock music & radio, magazines, beer, sex and drugs are easily available to the troops (many even provided by the army) so the whole discepline of the troops just drops like a bomb. I personally think that comforting the troops, making them feel like theyre back in america by providing them with the creature comforts of home is one of the worst ideas you can come up with. Sure R&R is essential for morale, but when you're driving in a tank, on maneuvers, sitting in a foxhole, listening to rock and roll and having a smoke really does make a mockery of the whole thing. Theyre not at home, theyre not on R&R, theyre in the sh*t and they need to get themselves together if theyre going to make it back alive.
Sun Sep 12, 2004 4:46 pm
The War in Vietnam did not start when the French were colonizing Vietnam.
It started BECAUSE the French had colonized Indochina, had lost its grip on it during WW2 and sought to reestablish control after WW2 was over. Unlike others who shortly started to relinquish control like the British and the Dutch, the French were determined too keep Indochina (Laos, Vietnam and Campodia).
The Viet Minh ... later the Viet Cong in S. Vietnam, under Ho Chi Minh, sought independence for the Vietnamese peoples even before WW2. Ho sought help from other western countries to help in his pursuit of self-determination for his own people from many different governments.
Interestingly and ironically, as was the case with Chiang Kai Shek before him, Ho went to America first but was unsuccessful. He too, therefore, turned to the USSR where he found sympathetic ears and support and, also, the support of Mao Tse Tung (Mao Ze Dong) who also was a client of the Russians at that time. Unlike Chiang, however, Ho did not gain any assistance from the Allies, during WW2.
As Taw says, Dien Bien Phu, in 1954, was the ultimate defeat of the French Foreign Legion that forced the French out and the People's Republic of North Vietnam was founded.
And because of Ho's communist affiliation, it was put forward from the Kennedy Administration onward that the "Domino Theory" would apply such that all of former Indochina and perhaps even Thailand and Burma would become communist if the US did not interevene in South Vietnam.
In fact, during the Eisenhower Administration, military advisers were sent to South Vietnam to observe what was happening and to consult with the French. US involvement in Indochina was motivated by a policy decision that there was a need to contain the spread of communism. There may have been more basic commercial interests in play as well but it was not all that apparent.
And it is true that the neighboring countries felt threatened by Ho's successes and supported US efforts to keep the South "free." I.e: The RoK committed its best troops to the cause. The Tiger Battalion was famous in Vietnam and there are many stories about that unit in particular and the pains it would appear that not only the Cong but NVA regulars also took to avoid engagements with it.
The rest is "history."
As a side note, the people of Vietnam have a very ancient heritage. In all of the centuries that there have been a Vietnam people and culture, it more commonly has been divided between North and South than not. In pre-French days, this division mainly had to do with the cultural influences and type of Buddhism practiced on the North and South.
Needless to say, the North mainly was influenced by China and the form of buddhism practiced by the majority appears to be a form of Mahayana Buddhism while, in the South, Indian cultural influences, along with Thai and Cambodian
ones were much stronger. And the majority appear to have practiced Theravada Buddhism.
Edited by - Indy11 on 9/12/2004 6:04:13 PM
It started BECAUSE the French had colonized Indochina, had lost its grip on it during WW2 and sought to reestablish control after WW2 was over. Unlike others who shortly started to relinquish control like the British and the Dutch, the French were determined too keep Indochina (Laos, Vietnam and Campodia).
The Viet Minh ... later the Viet Cong in S. Vietnam, under Ho Chi Minh, sought independence for the Vietnamese peoples even before WW2. Ho sought help from other western countries to help in his pursuit of self-determination for his own people from many different governments.
Interestingly and ironically, as was the case with Chiang Kai Shek before him, Ho went to America first but was unsuccessful. He too, therefore, turned to the USSR where he found sympathetic ears and support and, also, the support of Mao Tse Tung (Mao Ze Dong) who also was a client of the Russians at that time. Unlike Chiang, however, Ho did not gain any assistance from the Allies, during WW2.
As Taw says, Dien Bien Phu, in 1954, was the ultimate defeat of the French Foreign Legion that forced the French out and the People's Republic of North Vietnam was founded.
And because of Ho's communist affiliation, it was put forward from the Kennedy Administration onward that the "Domino Theory" would apply such that all of former Indochina and perhaps even Thailand and Burma would become communist if the US did not interevene in South Vietnam.
In fact, during the Eisenhower Administration, military advisers were sent to South Vietnam to observe what was happening and to consult with the French. US involvement in Indochina was motivated by a policy decision that there was a need to contain the spread of communism. There may have been more basic commercial interests in play as well but it was not all that apparent.
And it is true that the neighboring countries felt threatened by Ho's successes and supported US efforts to keep the South "free." I.e: The RoK committed its best troops to the cause. The Tiger Battalion was famous in Vietnam and there are many stories about that unit in particular and the pains it would appear that not only the Cong but NVA regulars also took to avoid engagements with it.
The rest is "history."
As a side note, the people of Vietnam have a very ancient heritage. In all of the centuries that there have been a Vietnam people and culture, it more commonly has been divided between North and South than not. In pre-French days, this division mainly had to do with the cultural influences and type of Buddhism practiced on the North and South.
Needless to say, the North mainly was influenced by China and the form of buddhism practiced by the majority appears to be a form of Mahayana Buddhism while, in the South, Indian cultural influences, along with Thai and Cambodian
ones were much stronger. And the majority appear to have practiced Theravada Buddhism.
Edited by - Indy11 on 9/12/2004 6:04:13 PM
46 posts
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