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The Decline And Fall Of Western Civilization

This is where you can discuss your homework, family, just about anything, make strange sounds and otherwise discuss things which are really not related to the Lancer-series. Yes that means you can discuss other games.

Post Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:14 am

The Decline And Fall Of Western Civilization

Here's a book that I'm going to read. Don't know if any of you already have been thinking about these things.

Post Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:14 am

War? Terrorists? No, Here's What's Really Scary
By CLIFFORD KRAUSS

Published: June 29, 2004

TORONTO

FOUR decades after she fought to save Washington Square Park and wrote "The Death and Life of Great American Cities," a seminal book that has reshaped urban planning to this day, Jane Jacobs sits on her weather-beaten front porch here, contemplating the untended meadow that is her front yard and waving to neighbors as they walk by.

At 88, she has trouble taking even a few steps without her walker to dump junk mail into a recycling bin she keeps handy on the veranda.

"I used to bicycle to work," she recalled with a nostalgic grin and widening eyes that still twinkle through her big eyeglasses. "There are compensations, though. The older you get, the more loose ends that you've observed through life get tied up. And that's interesting."

Ms. Jacobs's tying up of loose ends has produced a quirky, somewhat scattered but typically iconoclastic new book, "Dark Age Ahead" (Random House), her eighth. As its title so bleakly suggests, it sounds a litany of warnings about Western society, which she sees as tilting toward a steep decline, or at least a critical reckoning.

"The purpose of this book is to help our culture avoid sliding into a dead end," she writes at the start of the compact, 241-page work. At the end, she concludes, "Formerly vigorous cultures typically fall prey to the arrogant self-deception for which the Greeks had a word, 'hubris.' "

In reaching her gloomy conclusions, Ms. Jacobs barely skims over such possibilities of calamity as terrorism, nuclear war and environmental degradation. Rather, she calls those mere symptoms of what she views as more fundamental, less obvious ailments: the breakdown of the family, the decline of higher education, lapses of modern science, tax systems that do not distribute money fairly and the inadequate self-regulation of professions. These, for her, are signs that the very pillars that support society are rotting.

She says it is natural for societies to "make mistakes and get off balance," but then they correct themselves. "What seems different about this situation is the stabilizers themselves are in trouble," she said one recent afternoon. "If the stabilizers go, what do we depend on?"

Ms. Jacobs also sees dark clouds looming over some staples of contemporary life. She predicts that the current explosion in housing prices will prove to be a bubble, though she cannot say whether it will pop before or during "the coming demographic bulge in retirements."

She also says the sprawling suburbs of North America are not sustainable. "One of the most destabilizing things about the suburbs and a symptom of their destabilization is the kind of transportation they need," she said, referring to gas-guzzling cars and sport utility vehicles. "Society is shaping something that is dysfunctional."

IN her book, she writes that once the housing bubble bursts, many owners of suburban lots will "no doubt sell their land and buildings to developers who plan to put them to more intensive use by building apartment houses, low-cost condominiums and spaces for small businesses." And, "resourceful owners will convert their rec rooms to low-cost rental suites."

Diatribes against suburbia and the automobile come naturally to Ms. Jacobs, a committed city dweller - stronger on life experience than academic credentials - who led the community movement in the 1950's and 60's against a freeway that would have gone through the West Village and Washington Square. Her 1961 classic, "Great American Cities," challenged the urban redevelopment that was transforming American cities; in it, she contended that vital communities depended on the varied street life and small-scale virtues of densely settled neighborhoods.

After 30 years in New York City, she and her husband, Robert Jacobs, left for Canada in the late 60's in protest of the Vietnam War. In Toronto, she led fights to save neighborhoods and gracious landmarks like Union Station. Ms. Jacobs, now a widow, still visits New York from time to time. Here, she remains a force in urban-planning debates and still resides in the Annex, a multiethnic, multiclass neighborhood in downtown Toronto that fits her prescription for healthy urban life. Her street has plenty of trees for shade and porches for neighborly conversation and is only a block from busy Bloor Street with its wide variety of stores, restaurants and robust street life.

Her sensibilities may seem a throwback to the 60's, but she takes a view in her writings and conversations that dates back long before Bob Dylan. About her unkempt front yard, for instance, she says those are not wild, overgrown weeds but "native plants" that are far more appropriate there than some immaculately cut, dandelion-free yard of grass.

"It's not wholesome to the environment to constantly put pesticides on lawns," she said. "Such lawns came from England. It was part of the plantation age. People with large estates and lots of animals had old money. That was prestige, which was a kind of fashion."

For Jane Jacobs, breaking that kind of fashion is the way to avert the next dark age.

"We human beings are not going to get stuck indefinitely on bad mistakes," she said with hope in her voice. "We're not helpless."

Post Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:43 am

hmm, sounds surspishusley like Spengler's "Decline of the West" to me..

Post Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:21 am

Your reading is too profound for TLR Really though, why do you keep on posting random stuff?

Post Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:24 am

This is the OT is it not?

Post Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:26 am

never mind Ed, I know what you're on about (usually)

this speculation isn't new, that as a culture, western civilisation is passing it's peak and is entering a crisis of identity and purpose, internally and in it's relations with other cultures. it's q a common theme in sci-fi and futuristic drama.

Edited by - Tawakalna on 6/29/2004 3:29:21 PM

Post Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:16 pm

cyberpunk dystopia man!
thats where i'll be

Post Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:27 pm

what do you mean, "will be?" you already are..

btw you total faggot I fookin lurv' your new(-ish) website and be thankful I'm stoned off me face or I'd never give you such an egoboost..

Edited by - Tawakalna on 6/29/2004 4:54:27 PM

Post Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:41 pm

I've felt that society has been going downhill for the last eight years. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who thinks so!

Post Wed Jun 30, 2004 2:12 am

"She predicts that the current explosion in housing prices will prove to be a bubble, though she cannot say whether it will pop before or during "the coming demographic bulge in retirements.""

Blah , NZ goes through price rises and falls every so often. Prices rise when demand exceeds supply and then they start to fall when the demand is less then the supply. Nothing new in that at all.

Post Wed Jun 30, 2004 7:28 am

Historically democracies collapse because people find out they can use their votes to take stuff away from other people. Look at Europe, look how high the taxes are there. In the United States the top 5% pay 50% of the income taxes. The bottom 40% don't pay any. (don't believe me, go to the IRS webpage and see for yourself) Some of you probably say, "good, the rich deserve to get screwed," but does screwing a rich guy really benefit you? Do you think a rich guy just stuffs his money in a mattress? No, he reinvests it, expands his business, hires more people. You can't have a system where the people pulling the cart are worse off than the people riding in it, or before long no one will be pulling the cart. You can only punish achievement so much before people decide it's not worth it to achieve. Example: In America small businesses employ 75% of the workforce, but we have people in our society who are doing everything they can to make things tougher for small businesses, like raising taxes, increasing regulations, increasing the minimum wage, ect.

Now if your talking about moral decline, that's easy to see. We'll never have enough jail cells as long as we don't have enough good homes. A big problem is that a lot of people in the media don't have any morals, and they have contempt for those of us who do. All you can do about it is not watch shows that depict lousy moral values, and try to teach your kids good values, because they won't learn them at school.

As for these doom and gloom scenarios that these environmentalist-wackos come up with all the time, they're a bunch of anti-capitalist nature worshippers, and they're using the environment as a vehicle to destroy private property rights and the free enterprise system. I say, go clean up places like China, and these third world marxist dictatorships, and when every country is as clean as the United States then let's try to make it cleaner here.

Let's get those missiles ready to destroy the universe!!

Post Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:16 am

Ugn said:


Historically democracies collapse because people find out they can use their votes to take stuff away from other people. Look at Europe, look how high the taxes are there.


Huh[? Historically? How many democracies have failed because of this behavior? I can't think of any so I'd appreciate some insight here. What about Europe?

That same 5% of the US population that pays 50% of the taxes also happens to possess 60% (59.3%) of the wealth in this country. As a matter of fact 1% of the US population owns 38% of the wealth in this country.

I don't think the US Govt punishes achievement. However, it is pretty clear that its the first guy to get to a dominant position in any sector of business or industry that then actively works to prevent anyone else from being able to compete (shades of someone we know maybe ? ) That's what's really stopping achievement: Someone else's achievement.

Post Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:29 am

It seems like a natural course of development.

I have a plan to stake out in the mountains of BC sometime when I'm 40. with rifle and all.

Failing that... well.. sooner or later when western civ degrades, I predict a world gov't. Think about it... annd by then, well.. depending on which doctrine, I'll be gone, close-to-gone, or still around doing stuff

Post Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:21 am

do you need a propaganda photographer?

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