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A Sad day for Theif 3 and Deus Ex Gamers

This is where you can discuss your homework, family, just about anything, make strange sounds and otherwise discuss things which are really not related to the Lancer-series. Yes that means you can discuss other games.

Post Thu Apr 08, 2004 8:19 pm

A Sad day for Theif 3 and Deus Ex Gamers

I was browsing around and found these two articles/interviews about Theif 3/Deus Ex 3. Be forewarned, they are not good. Here they are:

Thief 3 : Dark Shadows

"You can't make games for M.I.T. grads," Spector quipped, referring to the complexity and difficulty of past games. To bring new gamers into the Thief world, important changes have been made that smooth the transition between this game and its predecessors as well as antiquated design decisions and present-day ideas.



Deus Ex 3 (Near the end of the article)

Gamer.tv: What's the next step with Deus Ex?

WS: [Smiles We're already working on the third game in the series but I'm not going to tell you what the next step is in any detail



Why is Warren Spector considered a game designer ?
I'm going to go sulk now ......



Edited by - Neo_Kuja on 4/8/2004 9:23:13 PM

Post Thu Apr 08, 2004 9:29 pm

Why does that make it a sad day? Forgive my ignorance, but im not seeing what the problem is here.

Good luck to him, IMO I think Warren Spector is a great developer (he did develop the original Deus Ex y'know?) Personally i'm looking forward to Thief 3, it's looking like it will have some good features that didn't appear in the frist two. My only concern is the performance of the DX 2 engine, which from what I understand isn't a great performer. So i'll wait for the review prior to making a purchase.

However, I don't buy into this whole "dumbed down for consoles" crap, a good game is still a good game. Look at Vice City or KOTOR, both were developed with the console in mind but both made the top 5 of almost everyones top PC game list in 2003. The problem is you get a couple of pimply faces knobs on a forum who decide they don't like a particular feature or lack of a feature, and said opinion snowballs into popular opinion. Then you've got eveyone waving their arms around in the air screaming "dumbed down for consoles!", when that opinion came from, what is essentially, an idiot.

Edited by - Mustang on 4/8/2004 10:31:27 PM

Post Thu Apr 08, 2004 9:48 pm

Firstly ,The thing is, Deus Ex 2 *WAS* dumbed down. "Universal Ammo", what crap (excuse my language) could they come up with next ?. You cannot say that is not a console trait, as consoles in general are worse than their PC counterparts, so all lazy programmers (Like Warren Spector) do is modify the code so it can play on the PC, and leave the console traits in.

Secondly ,I agree, the ORIGINAL Deus Ex is great (I still play it), but the sequal loses it's charm because it is (basically) Deus Ex without all the good features - minus the graphics. Another example is in the Theif 3 article, it says Garret will be more powerful physically, and that shouldn't be, as the point of being a theif is to avoid being seen, and to get out as quick and silently as possible. Soon people will know which guard attacks by themselves, and will exploit it. The game is not "Ninja 3", but people will exploit the new physical properties of garret and simply gut every gurad who has their back turned.

Thirdly, making games "avaliable to the wider range of people" is simply a excuse to put less features into the game, as "people don't like games too complex". What an utter lie. As games have evolved, gamers have evolved. Gamers are no longer satisfied with the endless FPS clones coming out, and a game has to have a good concept, or gameplay to succeed in the market.

I'm sorry, but Ion Storm has gone into the gutter. Literally.

Edited by - Neo_Kuja on 4/8/2004 10:49:09 PM

Post Thu Apr 08, 2004 11:50 pm


Firstly ,The thing is, Deus Ex 2 *WAS* dumbed down. "Universal Ammo", what crap (excuse my language) could they come up with next ?. You cannot say that is not a console trait, as consoles in general are worse than their PC counterparts, so all lazy programmers (Like Warren Spector) do is modify the code so it can play on the PC, and leave the console traits in.


Actually I can say that universal ammo is a not a console trait, it's a design decision. What exactly constitutes a console trait anyway? Universal ammo was put in so players didn't have to piss around searching for a particular type of ammo and quite possibly never using a particular type of weapon.....I don't actually like it either, but I can see why they decided to go down that road. Things change in sequels but when sequels get released on consoles, they get console traits? If it makes sense to you, that's great, but you'll never convince me of it. A good game will always be a good game in my book, regardless of the platform(s) it's released on.

Post Fri Apr 09, 2004 1:12 am

No-no-no, in the original, if your favoured weapon ran out of ammo (Assault Rifle for instance)you always had a back-up weapon (as such as a pistol). If you run out of ammo in the sequal, you're dead.

Post Fri Apr 09, 2004 1:22 am

I think Thief 3 looks like it's coming along nicely actually. They've retained the ability to set the difficulty level before each mission, so if you want to have a hard game, set it to max. I am a little concerned that they've made combat easier, I'm into the stealth side of the game and it made it that much more tense when you knew that if it all went to hell, you might be able to take out one guard but there was no way you could take them all *cue running round like a mad chicken around a mansion trying to hide*
I'm sad to see the classic rope arrow go, but now its being replaced by climbing gloves which you can use over and over again, hopefully this will add to the game, allowing you to hide on the ceiling if need be. Don't forget also that some aspects of the game will become much harder now that the AI has been improved. Guards won't just wander at random looking for you when alerted, they'll follow real search patterns, nor will they keep to fixed patrol paths all the time making finding safe places almost impossible. It also looks set to be a little more realistic, you'll no longer need to waste a water arrow snuffing out a candle.
Finally, the most promising bit to me is the free form city that you'll be able to explore in between missions, I'm looking forward to something akin to the rooftop level in Thief 2, yet hopefully due to the AI there'll be far more interaction. Apparently if you rob a certain area too much the residents will hire more guards.

Post Fri Apr 09, 2004 1:49 am


Look at Vice City or KOTOR, both were developed with the console in mind but both made the top 5 of almost everyones top PC game list in 2003

Vice City can get away with being a true console game because its a basic third person shooter and hardly complex in its outer appearance.

KOTOR is different, I know it's very popular and got great reviews but I still think that it could have been MUCH better if it was exclusively PC:

For starters, Bioware deliberately tried to hide their use of D&D in the game because of fears it might damage console users' support. The result was very confused, with the occasional saving throw and base critical threat appearing, but no real explaination as to how they worked.

The interface was also shoddy in some respects. It took MUCH too long to pick a skill or force power to use, being force to cycle was very console-esq. Whatever happened to the NWN skill flowers which were much easier to navigate once you got the hang of it? Another problem I found annoying was being in a 3rd person perspective. I personally thought this was very lazy and not nearly as good as Bioware could have made it. I don't mind the camera fixed on the player as such, but being forced to stay at a fixed distance and elevation (yes, you could zoom and stuff but it was hardly worthwhile). You navigated with the keyboard, why not the mouse? Simply point and click. You might have had the OPTION of using your keyboard but it should not be compulsory.

Thirdly, the enormous dumbing down of skills. For those poor X-Box games who have to navigate with a couple of sticks and a few buttons, it was only fair that they get a simple skill and force interface. Proficient -> Expert -> Master. Not exactly though-provoking. At best, you're torn between upgrading a a skill or finding a new one. With the aid of a mouse, a player could have chosen from a reasonable list of feats which enhance his or her character in original and fascinating ways. Perhaps the scoundrel could have been a little more imaginative than Luck, Sneak Attack and Dodge. With some imagination and common sense, the possibilities are not endless, but very interesting.

Finally, the inclusion of mini-games seems to have been some kind of appeasement for console users. "Hmm, let's put random shooting intermissions in an RPG", hopefully Bioware didn't think of it at that, but that was the impression I got. Mercifully, you're allowed to use a mouse in them, but PC users should not be subjected to them all the same. Some RPG players aren't very good at FPS, making this part of the game a nightmare and ruining the entire experience for them. Console users would not suffer from this, as the majority of X-Box games are shooting and the like so players would get little grief from them and only see them as a minor annoyance. The only minigame which was properly and fairly integrated was the swoop racing - there is only one compulsory one and that is very easy.

Whew, glad I got that out of my system

EDIT: Post v1.1 has grammar
EDIT: Post v1.2 has better grammar

I'm not evil, just morally challenged

Edited by - The Evil Thing on 4/9/2004 2:54:08 AM

Post Sat Apr 10, 2004 4:01 am

Of course DX2 was dumbed down! The console crowd obviously have lower IQs than computer users! (If you couldn't tell, I was being sarcastic ). KOTOR was bloody great, and of course it would have been better if it had been solely for the PC crowd, but the more markets you cater to, the more people will buy the game, and the more money you make. It's too bad we can't go back to the good old days when games were developed for fun and not profit... oh right, that never happended .

TET -

...console-esq...
I don't own a console!

Post Sat Apr 10, 2004 11:05 pm

neo_kuja, i have one thing to say to you.
SHAME!!!!
Warren Spector is a legend!!!
look at the System Shock games. done by Warren Spector. SS2 is still one of the ONLY games that has me not wanting to enter the next room of the game. for fear of whats on the other side. Deus Ex is a masterpiece of cyberpunk culture. im yet to play DX2, but im looking forward to the pc release. (when i get money)
I have to agree in som points though. Consoles are not the ideal platform for FPS games, or for RTS games. however, Driving games, platformers, and third person games are exellent on consoles. along with final fantasy RPGs. id say rpg's in general, but, neverwinter nights? best on PC.

Consoles are also good for a couple of mates to have some good, quick, cheap fun blasting the crap out of each other.
Plus, it probably wasn't Spector's fault to bring the games to Console.

SysShock and Deus Ex fan to the end,
Viator

-------
i used to be a guy called jake_langley

Post Sat Apr 10, 2004 11:57 pm

Correction Viator, he WAS a legend. I agree, all of his past works were brilliant, I still play them !. But do not, DO NOT GET DEUS EX 2 FOR PC !!!!!!!

Your faithfullness towards Warren's designing is touching, but it has gone down hill. I have Deus Ex 2 and I don't want anyone to get sucked into buying the junky piece of trash he (Warren Spector) calls a game.

Please, take my warning, do not get it !
Here's what other people think :

GameFaqs Reviews - Dues Ex Invisible war (PC)

Post Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:19 am

hasnt this already been discussed??

Dues Ex 2 : invisible Bore

Althoug, i must say, i do enjoy going into a building with an m249 Para and blasting thae crap out of enemies that are too dumb to shoot back...

Post Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:13 pm

Neo:
even though you have warned me, i will still seek out dx2.
i have to look on it ... with my own eyes

let us just pray that System Shock 3 goes ahead, and out does its predecessors.

Viator

-------
i used to be a guy called jake_langley

Edited by - Viator on 4/14/2004 10:22:55 PM

Post Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:19 pm

MAn i havent played thief in a while i like it though

Post Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:28 pm

Viator, that's your decision now, I warned you enough.
Don't come running to me when you find out it's crap ..........

Post Thu Apr 15, 2004 3:52 pm

I never liked the Thief games. Too much sneaking around. I hate that. Although, I really do like getting that one cool kill, when you sneak up behind someone and strangle them from behind like in the Hitman games. There's nothing more satisfying than that.

"Evil will always triumph because good is dumb!"

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